Hello,

I have been searching for a few months now and I desperately need some help. I told my aunt I would find out who her great, great grandparents were and I just keep coming up with dead ends. As she is nearing 102 in June, I want to get this info for her as soon as I can.

The info I do have (from a family member) is this:

Henry Emile Carlier (1817-1875) Born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, France.
He married Louise Renee Plante (1821-1878) in 1838 in Belgium. She too born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, Fr. They had three children:

1) George Emile Carlier - (1839-1852) died when he was 13.
2) Dr. Arthur Emile Carlier (1841-1880) studied at University of Paris and became a surgeon. Came to US in late 1860's. He married Ida Mae (Close) Carlier and lived in Ohio. He traveled around northern Ohio into Pennsylvania practicing medicine. It was said that he would work at a cheese factory from time to time when he was low on funds and used that for medical supplies. He was called to Toledo, OH for at a consultation when he had a stroke and died. He was buried in Toledo.
3) Emily Louise Carlier - (1843-1874) no other info for her.

Arthur had three children, George Emile, Sr. was one of them and he was my grandfather. His son was George Emile Carlier, Jr., my dad.

The biggest problem is that I don't know what region in Belgium they were from and I don't know where to begin looking. Any suggestions regarding where I might go for information, would be greatly appreciated. Since I am on a very limited income, I cannot pay to join the various websites. Other spellings might be Carlior, Charlier, Carler,

Thank you so much for any suggestions,
BHowell

bonjour Bhowell,

ce n'est pas PLANTE mais THOMPSON (je ne sais pas où vous avez trouvé PLANTE)
votre recherche est sur Dunkerque (et pas Lille)

sinon, je pense que c'est cette famille dont il est question:

µfilm 5 Mi 27 r 076 - 903/1242
° 19/06/1846 Dunkerque de CARLIER Emilie Louise fille de Henri Louis CARLIER négociant, 46ans, ° Dunkerque et de Louis Catherine THOMPSON, 37ans, ° Londres.

µfilm 5 mi 27 r 036 - 308/1084
° 15/05/1840 de Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER de Henri Louis, négociant, ° Dunkerque et de Louise Catherine THOMPSON

le mariage CARLIER X THOMPSON a eu lieu à Chelsea , mais par chance retranscrit sur les registres de Dunkerque dans le µfilm 5 mi 27 r 051 - 402/1134

µfilm 5 mi 27 r 096 - 913/983 acte de décès de CARLIER henri emile (retranscription car il est mort à Anvers en Belgique)

je suis désolé, mais je ne parle pas américain, il faudrait que quelqu'un puisse traduire.

Stéphane

j'ajoute


mariage paroisse Haut Chelsea comté Middlesex le 3 août 1839
retranscrit le 24/10/1839 à Dunkerque

CARLIER Henri Emile, célibataire, de Dunkerque, gentilhomme, de Louis Joseph CARLIER
THOMPSON Louise Catherine, célibataire, de Nohasplacechelseand, fille de William George THOMPSON

Mort de henri Emile CARLIER 75ans, né à Dunkerque, mort le 01/09/1875 à Anvers, époux de Louise Catherine THOMPSON, fils de feu Louis CARLIER et de feue Marie FOCKEDEY.
Déclaration par Everitt WHITEMORE négociant 35 ans beau fils.


µfilm 5 mi 27 r 046 - 202/920

mariage 2 janvier 1792 à DUNKERQUE

Louis Joseph CARLIER 27 ans né à Bergues St Winoc paroisse St Pierre fils de Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER et de Marie Jacqueline Elène LEFERE
Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY 23 ans fille de François Louis FOCKEDEY et de Marie GODEFROY.

Bonjour B...... , bonjour à tous,

Petit complément :

Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER ° 1740 + 1788
X 29/02/1764 Bergues Saint Pierre
Marie Jacqueline Guilaine LEFEBVRE ° 1729 + 1790.

Henri Emile CARLIER avait un frère :
- Jean Joseph ° 19/04/1794 Dunkerque Nord, + en 1874 à Paris 75 Ile de France, Agent de change comme son père et courtier maritime
X 04/12/1844 avec Clémentine PERRIER ° 1802 Dunkerque, + en 1880 à Paris. dont :

Louis joseph CARLIER ° 20/03/1846 Paris, + en 1921 à Paris,
X 1872 Marguerite ARNAUDTIZON ° 1862 Le Havre Seine Maritime Normandie, + en 1908 Paris dont 4 enfants :
- Madeleine °1872 + 1958 X Charles COLLOT
- Ludovic + 1873
- Pierre Léon ° 1877 +28/09/1923? Consul général de France à Usbuk (Turquie) x Germaine BAROIS ° 1886 + 1981 dont 3 enfants
- Marianne ° 05/03/1882 Domont 95 Val d'OISE, + 06/09/1977 Lesneven 29 Finistère Bretagne, X 12/03/1903 Edmond Jules Hippolyte ALLAIN-LAUNAY ° 18/12/1878 Paris, + 17/04/1924 Domont, Ingénieur en chef à la Cie du gaz et d'électricité dont 2 enfants.......

Cordialement.

Thank you so much for helping me. Once you get information, you have to verify to make sure. Your help to me and everyone you've helped is monumental. Thank you!

Thank you so much for helping me. This info is amazing.

Can anyone further explain the events and dates in this post? Thank you.

Hi Bhowell ( why don't you give us your first name?)
My name is Christiane, I was born in Lille, France, and I have been living in the US for 45 years. I am going to try to help you in english.

I will start here with the content of message # 2 of this thread:
I checked the death tables in Dunkerque and found Henri Emile CARLIER on September 7, 1877, spouse of THOMPSON.
By searching for the record itself in microfilm 5 mi 27 r 096 - p.913/983 at that date, I found an interesting transcription that shows that even though he was born in Dunkerque and lived there, he died in Anvers September 1, 1875. Yes, it took 2 years for the death record to be translated , transmitted, and recorded in Dunkerque, because it went through different administrations for signature.

According to the testimony of his son-in-law Charles Everett WHITEMORE, his wife was Louise Catherine THOMPSON and he was the son of Louis CARLIER deceased, and Marie FOCKEDEY deceased,
I am going to post that record in the "Galerie" of this forum and you can click on the link below to see it and save the image if you wish.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30287
I will translate it later for you.

Stephane found the birth dates of two of the children in Dunkerque
15 May 1840 birth of Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER, son of Henri Louis CARLIER, négociant, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON ( microfilm 5 mi 27 r 036 - p.308/1084)

19 June 1846 birth of Emilie Louise CARLIER, daughter of Henri Louis CARLIER négociant, 46 years old, born in Dunkerque and of Louise Catherine THOMPSON, 37years old, born in London. ( microfilm 5 Mi 27 r 076 - p.903/12420)

I found the birth of the third one in Dunkerque
15 April 1843 birth of William Emile George CARLIER son of Henri Emile CARLIER, 42 years old, born in Dunkerque, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON, 34 years old, born in London ( microfilm 5 Mi 27 R 036 p. 931/1084)
Witnesses:
Louis Joseph CARLIER, 79 years old, grandfather of the child
Charles Louis CARLIER, 56 years old, uncle of the child.

That will be all for the moment, I will translate message # 3 in another post later
Christiane

P.S. As you will notice, on this forum we use all capital letters for the last names.
The microfilm references # are those of the Departmental Archives located in Lille and online at
http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/

Christiane, I can't thank you enough! This is so helpful. My first name is Bonnie.

Hi Bonnie,
Here is the translation of the death record of Henri Emile CARLIER found in the Dunkerque register. It is a transcription of the record received from Antwerp, Holland, where he died. The first two paragraphs are the essential part of the record. The rest is legalese and my translation of the legal terms might be slightly off but you will get the idea…

Death record of Henri Emile CARLIER (transcription)
In 1877, 7 of September at 3:00 p.m., we, Frédéric Charles d’Arras, mayor and public officer of Civil Records of the town of Dunkerque, department of Nord, in accordance with art. 4 of the Civil Code, make the following transcription:
Kingdom of Belgium, Antwerp province, City Administration of Antwerp. Translation:
On September 2, in the year of 1875, at 3:00 pm. Record of death of Henri Emile CARLIER, no occupation, 75 years old, born in Dunkerque, department of Nord in France, domiciled there, died here on September 1 of this year at 10 p.m., spouse of Louise Catherine THOMPSON, son of deceased Louis CARLIER and deceased Marie FOCKEDEY, according to a testimony made to me by Charle Everett WHITEMORE, wholesale merchant, 35 years old, son-in-law of the deceased, and by Jean Louis (STEVENS ?), employee, 39 years old, who knew the deceased, both domiciled here. So made in double copies here, at City Hall by me, Official of the City of Antwerp, officer of Civil Records, and this after having checked the said death, and after the reading of the present document the witnesses have signed with me. Was signed C.E. WHITEMORE and L . STEVENS and A. VAN DEN NEST.
For authenticated copy, as executed in accordance with art. 80 of the Civil Code. Anvers, October 5, 1875. The Officer of Civil Records, signed VAN DEN NEST and sealed.
Reviewed by the tribunal of Antwerp for authentication of the signature of Mr. VAN DEN NEST, Antwerp October 6, 1875. Signed VAN CATEAU and sealed.
Reviewed by the Justice Department for authentication of the signature of Mr. VAN CATEAU. Brussels, February 12, 1876. The General Secretary. Signed PUTZEYS and sealed.
Reviewed for the authentication of the signature of Mr. PUTZEYS. Brussels, March 1, 1876
For the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director, signed E. BANNING and sealed
Reviewed for the authentication of the signature of Mr. BANNING. Brussels, March 23, 1876
For the General Consul, substituted by the Chancellor. Signed Eugene CHAPAY and sealed. Paris, March 7, 1877
Reviewed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. For the Vice-director chief of the chancellery. Signed DUBOIS and sealed
For copy authenticated at day, month, and year above

That's it.

Now, I went of the Dunkerque Archives website and I found the transcription of his marriage record in 1839 in Chelsea England. It was translated from English to French and written in the Dunkerque's records and I made a scan, but I have to read it and translate it, so it will be in the next post.
Write to you soon...
Christiane

P.S. When you answer a post, to avoid repeating a long text you can delete part of that message and keep only what is essential. In doing so, be careful to keep the "quote" word between brackets at the beginning of what your are keeping and the "/quote" word between brackets at the end. I know, it is not easy.

This is so wonderful! Thank you so much!

Hi Bonnie, it's me again.
Here is a link to the scan of the marriage transcription CARLIER x THOMPSON, in the Dunkerque records and below is my translation. The record was in 2 parts, one at the bottom of a page, the rest at the top of the following page, so I “stitched” the 2 scans together to make a single record.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30289

Marriage of Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON ( my translation )
In the year 1839, on October 24th, 2:00 p.m. before us, François Benjamin Joseph DELATTRE, mayor pro-tem ( vice mayor?) to act for civil records of the town of Dunkerque, we have, as required by Article 72 of the Civil Code, done the following transcription:
Translation.
1839 - Marriage celebrated in the parish church of Upper-Chelsea, Middlesex County
The table shows
Date of marriage: August 2, 1839
Family names and first names: Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON
Age: "Major" (age not specified but they are not minors)
Status: both singles.
Rank or occupation: gentleman
Residence at time of marriage: Dunkerque for him and (rohansplace?), Chelsea for her
Name and first name of fathers: Louis Joseph CARLIER and William George THOMPSON
Rank or occupation of the fathers: Gentleman and the other is deceased
Married in the parish church, according to rites and ceremonies of the established church with dispensation from me, W. NIVEN.
The marriage has been celebrated between Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON
In the presence of ( signatures) BARSLER, CARLIER, THOMPSON, GOODEVE, PLUMMER, THOMPSON
-----------------------------------------------
What precedes is a true copy, taken from the marriage register of the Upper Chelsea parish, county of Middlesex. The 3rd day of August 1839, by me . Signed Henri VAUGHAN, clercq of the church of the Trinity.
Translated by the undersigned, certified translator of the English language, from an original document that I signed and gave back.
In Dunkerque, August 29, 1839. Signed DEBAERT
Seen at the French Consulate for authentication of the signature of Mr. Henri VAUGHAN, officer at the Trinity church in the parish of ------Chelsea in the County of Middlesex,
London, October 15, 1839, signed DURAND and Mr. General Consul, signed Gautier ----?
Copy conforming to the original
Signature.
End of my translaton
Since you know now the place in England, you might be able to find the original record in english and more information about Louise Catherine THOMPSON and her father William George THOMPSON.

Christiane

Bonjour Danielle,
J’ai posté par erreur 2 fois la même image du décès de Henri Emile CARLIER avec 2 dates différentes.
L’une est marquée 1675 et c’est celle qui est en erreur. Pourriez-vous s’il vous plait l’enlever de la Galerie ?
La bonne date est 1875!
Merci d’avance.
Christiane

Thank you so much Christiane. I will never forget your kindness. I sent a letter to my aunt today to tell her. I'm so glad I could finally let her know who her great great grandparents were. ... she will be 102 in June. Again, thank you so much! You are truly a blessing.
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
I am glad I can help you and I have some more information for you
We know from the death record in 1875 that Henri Emile CARLIER is the son of Louis Joseph CARLIER and Marie FOCKEDEY

Here is the translation of the information posted in message #3 by Stephane about the marriage CARLIER x FOCKEDEY
January 2, 1792 marriage in Dunkerque of
Louis Joseph CARLIER, 27 years old, born in Bergues St Winoc, St Peter's parish, son of Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER and Marie Jacqueline Elene LEFERE
x with
Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY, 23 years old, daughter of François Louis FOCKEDEY and Marie GODEFROY
I found the record in microfilm 5 Mi 27R 046 [M 1791-1794] page 200,
and I can add the names of the witnesses to the marriage:
Jean Baptiste CARLIER, merchant brewer, a cousin of the groom
Pierre LEFERE, Cousin of the groom
Francois Louis FOCKEDEY, merchant brewer, father of the bride
Francois Louis FOCKEDEY, brother of the bride

I noticed in the next record that the sister of Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY, whose name is Thérèse Cécile HOCKEDEY got married the same day ( January 2, 1792) with Pierre Francois LEFEBVRE.

With the age of Henri Emile CARLIER at the birth of this children I figured roughly his birth year around 1800 and looked for his birth in Dunkerque records.

Dunkerque, microfilm 5 Mi 27 R 027 page 998 we have record # 327
Year 8 of the French Republic, 5 Nivose ( 26 December 1799)
Record of the birth of Henri Emile CARLIER, born the day before yesterday ( the 24th) son of Louis Joseph CARLIER, native of Bergues, St Martin parish, and Marie Jeanne Elizabeht FOCKEDEY
Witnesses Louis Joseph ROUZE, 27 years old, wholesale merchnant, and Thérèse Lucie VANHANDT 23 years old, wife of Jean François FOCKEDEY, brewer, uncle and aunt per marriage of the newborn and living in this town.
Signed FOCKEDEY, CARLIER, VANHANDT, ROUZE, (and the name of the clercq unreadable)

Now for the cherry on top!
In microfilm 5 Mi 27 R 020 [B 1762-1770] page 895, we have record # 983
December 26, 1768
Baptism of Marie Jeanne Elizabeth FOCKEDEY born the 25th
daughter of François Louis FOCKEDEY, native of Dunkerque
and Marie GODEFROY also of Dunkerque
Godfather: Jean Baptiste GODEFROY
Godmother: Elizabeth PERDU, widow of Pierre FOCKEDEY

I know it's a lot of stuff to digest and if you have any questions about these records or about these ancestors, please don't hesitate to ask. This forum is there to help.
Good night
Christiane

Anvers, Antwerp, Antwerpen - are these all the same place?

Hi Bonnie,

Definitively yes. Anvers for French people, Antwerp for British and Antwerpen for Dutch or Flemish. Antwerp is the capital of Antwerp Province of Flanders in Belgium.

Christian

Hi Bonnie,
As Christian said, Anvers and Antwerp are the same and are located in the Flandre province of Belgium I used the term Antwerp in my translation because I was writing in english.

Here is another supplement for you and your aunt
In microfilm 5 Mi 25 R 010 Bergues (St Pierre parish) [B 1759-1780] page 138/1059

19 December 1764
Baptism of Louis Joseph CARLIER
son of Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER, native of Dunkerque ( Dunkirk in english)
and Marie Jacqueline Helene LEFERE, native of Crochte ( it is near Bergues)
Godfather: François LEROY
Godmother: Jeanne Angélique OUTTERS
Here is the link to the image in the Galerie
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30301

Bergues is about 8 miles from Dunkerque
Crochte is about 2 miles from Bergues.

Because the images of records are online on the Departmental Archives of Nord website, we are not supposed to post them in the Galerie any longer to avoid loading the Forum website. I made an exception because you do not read french and are not familiar with the French Archives website. I hope the administrator of the forum won't mind.
This morning I have been unable to load the record above. I will later when I can

Here is a link to the birth record of Henri Emile CARLIER in 1799 that I could not load earlier ( see the transcription in an earlier message)
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30302

My best wishes to your aunt. Have a good good day
Christiane

Thank you again Christiane! Great info!

Thank you Christian. Very helpful

Christiane,

I hate to ask for more since you've already been so generous... but... could you please transcribe message #4? That one really has me puzzled. No rush of course... I still have plenty to review! So exciting... thank you so much!
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
No problem with helping , this is what forum members do. I translated first the messages and records regarding your direct line of ascendants, and that was giving you quite a bit of information to digest in two days, that's why I stopped!

Here is the content of message # 4 from Alain

Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER born 1740 died 1788
married February 29, 1764 in Bergues, St Peter parish with
Marie Jacqueline Guislaine LEFEBVRE, born 1729, died 1790

This couple are the parents of Louis Joseph CARLIER born in december 1764 and married in 1792. Notice that the spelling went from LEFEBVRE to LEFERE. It is not unusual for that period. Priests were using phonetic spelling.

Now, going back to your ancestor Henri Emile CARLIER (1799-1875), he had a brother:
Jean Joseph CARLIER, born 19 April 1794 in Dunkerque, died in 1874 in Paris. He was an agent in maritime transactions as an occupation.
Married 4 December 1844 with Clementine PERRIER born in 1802 Dunkerque, died 1880 in Paris
That couple CARLIER x PERRIER had 1 son:
Louis Joseph CARLIER born 20 March 1846 Paris, died 1921 Paris
Married 1872 with Marguerite ARNAUDTIZON born 1862 in LE HAVRE ( Normandy), died in 1908 in Paris

The couple CARLIER x ARNAUDTIZON had 4 children as follows:
1- Madeleine born 1872 died 1958 married with Charles COLLOT
2- Ludovic who died in 1873
3- Pierre Léon born 1877, died 29 September 1923? General Consul of France in Usbuk (Turkey) married with Germaine BAROIS born 1886, died 1981 (had 3 children)
4- Marianne born 5 May 1882, in Domont, department of Val d'Oise, died 6 september 1977 in Lesneven, department of Finistere (Britanny)
married with Edmond Jules Hippolyte ALLAIN-LAUNAY born 18 december 1878 in Paris, died 17 April 1924 in Domont. He was chief engineer at the "Gaz and Electricity of France" Company.

So these are also descendants of your ancestors Louis CARLIER x Marie HOCKEDEY and therefore your "cousins" .
If you have any questions about the contents of all messages ( records, trancriptions, details, or more general questions) don't hesitate to ask. This is how this forum works: we all ask questions, whoever knows the answers, gives it, and everyone can benefit from the answers.
Cheers
Christiane

bonjour,

je suis parti dans l'hypothèse que vous vous trompiez dans le nom de l'épouse en indiquant PLANTE au départ.
Par contre comment vous vous avez eu le nom PLANTE ?
Aucun acte en Amérique ne met THOMSON ?

Stéphane

Bonjour Stephane,

I tried to translate your message to English in MSWord and this is what I came up with:

Hello, I went in the event that you are mistaken in the name of the wife by indicating plant initially. However how you you had the plant name? No act in America does THOMSON?
Stéphane

If I understand, you want to know how I had PLANTE' in the first request. I have a collection of info from my Uncle who tried to track our ancestors as far back as possible. He could not find anything beyond Henri and Louise. In his records were Henry Emile CARLIER and Louise Renee PLANTE'. I did find a Louise PLANTE' nee MESLET in records in USA but didn't think that was it. (And I do not know what "nee" means.)
Thanks you,
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,

Thanks to the translation you have answered the question ask by Stéphane and in fact the question was already part of the very first message n°2.
Indeed, your initial request was abut the following family:

Henry Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) Born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, France.
He married Louise Renee PLANTE (1821-1878) in 1838 in Belgium. She too born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, Fr. They had three children:

1) George Emile CARTIER - (1839-1852) died when he was 13.
2) Dr. Arthur Emile CARTIER (1841-1880) studied at University of Paris and became a surgeon. Came to US in late 1860's. He married Ida MAE (Close) CARLIER and lived in Ohio. He traveled around northern Ohio into Pennsylvania practicing medicine. It was said that he would work at a cheese factory from time to time when he was low on funds and used that for medical supplies. He was called to Toledo, OH for at a consultation when he had a stroke and died. He was buried in Toledo.
3) Emily Louise CARLIER - (1843-1874) no other info for her.

Further to the various contributions we are now in front of another family:

Henri Emile CARLIER born 21 december 1799 Dunkirk, France
Married with THOMPSON Louise Catherine born around 1809 London, on 2 august 1839 Upper-Chelsea, England
They had children:

1) Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER born 15 may 1840 Dunkirk, France
2) William emile George CARLIER born 14 april 1840 Dunkirk, France
3) Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER born 18 june 1846 Dunkirk, France

For sure, the main difference is about Louise Renée PLANTE, furthermore your couple is supposed to have been married in Belgium. We also have a huge difference on Henri Emile CARLIER birth.
Informations collected through this forum seems correct and are justified with records.

One way to be sure that the new family is really part of your ancestors is to start from Arthur Emile CARLIER married with Ida MAE. When you write ...MAE (Close)..., I suppose that the name MAE is uncertain or difficult to read. Have you the record corresponding to this marriage? Usually, names of parents are included and it is a good way to verify whether we arre speaking about PLANTE or THOMPSON.

Remark:
In your last message, you explain you found a Louise PLANTE nee MESLET in records in USA. I have not the origin of the information, in a french text or record nee could be "née", let say born for a daughter or "né" for a son.
Not always but it is frequent, when a mother registers a child born prior to the marriage, the child is declared in the record under the name of the mother and later, if the mother get married, the child is recognised by both father and mother for legitimation purpose. Birth records are not always rectified with this legitimation and it is useful to keep in mind the initial name of the child.
It is a possible explaination.

Christian

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christian et Stephane,

Thank you Christian for your intervention and since you write so well in English I don't need to write my answer in both english and french.
First, I have to specify that Mae is a first name ( un prénom ) for girls.
Second, the problem with research in the US is that married women are often not under their maiden name after marriage.
So when Bonnie said that Arthur married Ida Mae CARLIER, Ida Mae was her first and middle names and CARLIER was most likely her married name. Bonnie could confirm this

Hi Bonnie,
I agree with Christian and Stephane that we found a line of ancestors that I checked with records, but the fact remains that the name PLANTE that you gave us at the beginning bring some doubts that we are on the right track with the right ancestors. PLANTE and THOMPSON are not even phonetically close.

Something remains coherent between what you gave us in your first message:
1) George Emile Carlier - (1839-1852)
2) Dr. Arthur Emile Carlier (1841-1880)
3) Emily Louise Carlier - (1843-1874)

and the births records we found:
15 May 1840 birth of Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER
15 April 1843 birth of William Emile George CARLIER -
09 June 1846 birth of Emilie Louise CARLIER,
except that the mother is THOMPSON and not PLANTE
I just found that William Emile George died in 1871 in Dunkerque at age 28 (not 13)
I did not find any PLANTE in the 1873-1882 death tables in Dunkerque. I did not find any THOMPSON either.

Bonnie wrote that Henri Emile CARLIER died in Belgium, and that is what I found in the French transcription of his death record in Anvers ( Antwerp ) says.

Like Christian, I think that you should return to Arthur and find his parents through his death and marriage records in the US. You might even have to start with the records about your grandfather if you don't have them, to make sure you are on the right track and with the right information.

One way to do research free, is to go to the Family History Center (Mormon) of your area. You don't have to be a Mormon. They are very helpful no matter your religious affiliation. I go to mine once a week to do my French research.
Right now I have to go but I will get back to you if I find something or if I think of something else.
Cheers
Amicalement à tous,
Christiane

Just wanted to clarify that Ida Mae's maiden name is CLOSE. Sorry about how I wrote it in the first message. (Close).

I am going over info that I had searched for in the past from familysearch.org. © 2012 IRI A service provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. May be the same as you mentioned.

I'm trying to see if I can find more.

Thank you everyone.
Bonnie

I found this info for a Louise MESLET or PLANTE'.

"Belgium, Antwerp Police I...igration Index, 1840-1930
DGS Film Number
4331460
4331461
4331462
4331463
4331464
4331465

Meslet (Vve), nee' Plante', Louise #38373"

Not sure what this means... Vve? Police?

Hi Bonnie
I think these might be microfilm numbers of an index of immigration to Belgium. Maybe in Belgiume it's the police who makes immigration indexes.

MESLET (Vve) née PLANTE would mean MESLET (widow) born PLANTE
which would mean a person born PLANTE who married MESLET. But, how does that relate to the CARLIER?

I did a bit of research on the mormon website Familysearch (Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter Day Saints)
With a “CARLIER” search I get too many answers in different States.

You say Georges Emile CARLIER was your grandfather. Did you know your grandparents when you were young or did you learn their names from the papers of your uncle?
Do you know the first name and maiden name of your grandmother? Do you know when ( approximatively) did you grandparents got married and where?. I might have found something but I want to know if I am on the right track

Cheers
Christiane

I knew my grandmother. My grandfather died 7-4-1941, before I was born in 1947.


Anna (Annie) Elizabeth SPINK CARLIER. Her dad was W.A. PARSH OR PARSCH.


They were married May 2, 1900 in Dayton, Ohio.

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christiane, bonjour à tous,

I did the exercice with the informations collected on LDS site. Starting from Arthur, I have the following tree:

Arthur CARLIER born Pennsylvania
married with
Ida CLARE or CLOSE depending of the source on LDS site

I found only one child for Arthur and Ida

George E. CARLIER born 6 october 1875 Erie, Pennsylvania, dead 4 july 1941 Dayton, Montgomery, Ohio, buried 7 july 1941 Woodland
married on 2 may 1900 Montgomery Co, Ohio with
Annie E. SPINK born either 1882 Elyra, Illinois or october 1881 Ohio (father: W.A. SPINK, mother Eliza PARSH)

I found five children for this family:

1) Newell CARLIER born 16 march 1901 Dayton, Montgomery
2) Ida May CARLIER born 11 june 1906 Mad River Twp, Montgomery, Ohio
3) Ruth Muriel CARLIER born 21 november 1907 Mad River Twp, Montgomery, Ohio, dead 19 january 1988 Freno, California
4) Charles Wilbur CARLIER born around 1912, married on (confidential) Lehigh Co, Pennsylvania with Ellen D. LOBST (father: Raymond LOBST, mother: Serena KERCHNER)
5) Albert Laverne CARLIER born around (confidential), married on (confidential) Lehigh Co, Pennsylvania with Evelyn Guth (?) SCHARADIN (father: Chas. (Charles?) SCHARADIN, mother: Sallie GUTH). To be confirmed since I am in trouble with married name and maiden name.

Remark: According to the rules on this forum we are not allowed to disclose date lower than 100 years from now. I put (confidential) despite the date(s) is (are) available on LDS site.

With the reference to your last message, we speak about the same people and you probably know much more about the five children. Now the target is to learn a little bit more about Arthur CARLIER and Ida CLARE or CLOSE to study the opportunity to connect those people and at least Arthur to what we found in Dunkirk. Thanks to Stephane and Christiane we have obtained a possible track but we need to be defitinely confident with the solution.

For your information, Charles Everitt WHITMORE, son-in-law of Henri Emile CARLIER dead at Antwerp, married Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 septembre 1871 Dunkirk. At this time he was Vice Consul for UK and based at Dunkirk. Both Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON were present at the ceremony.

Christian

There were 8 children. Added to this list is Verona CARLIER WALLACE (102 in June and lives in Arizona), Gladys CARLIER MATHIAS (lived in Allentown, PA but now deceased. She is supposed to be in Woman's Who's Who.) and my father George Emile CARLIER (1905-1978).

For your information, Charles Everitt WHITMORE, son-in-law of Henri Emile CARLIER dead at Antwerp, married Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 septembre 1871 Dunkirk. At this time he was Vice Consul for UK and based at Dunkirk. Both Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON were present at the ceremony.

I would be so thrilled to know for sure about this marriage. My uncle said there were no records of Emilie other than parents, birth and death.


Thank you so much Christian. It almost seems like a generation is missing since there is a space of around 20 years. I appreciate all your info. I have seen the Ida CLARE also, but it really is CLOSE.



Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
Thank you to use the button "rep.rapide" for your answers.
cordially

Oh thank you. Will I ever get this... *;* So sorry!

Bonjour Bonnie et François,
I made also a search on Familysearch website yesterday, and like you, I found the marriage George E. CARLIER x Annie SPINK.
George CARLIER is 24, born in Pennsylvania? Annie SPINK is 18 born in Illinois?
Here is an image of their marriage licence which establishes the names of their parents Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida Mae CLOSE and W. A. SPINK x Eliza PARSH.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30326
This licence is signed May 2, 1900

From there, I feel we need some records to establish a link with Henri Emile CARLIER (1799-1875) x THOMPSON whose records I found in Dunkerque. Otherwise we might be on the wrong track.

The website of Familysearch has a lot of information that has been submitted by people and has not been verified, so we need records to check what we find. Fortunately, they now put images of records on their website so we need to keep looking.

Christiane

Okay. I read over my records from my uncle again and have some personal things I can share. Also, I've wondered if there could be any records from the University of Paris from the 1850's that might show Arthur's parents. He studied there and after getting his doctorate degree, he went back and became a surgeon. I haven't had any luck but it could be that one of you may know something about those records.

According to a daily journal Arthur kept, he came to USA in late 1860s and practiced medicine from Harrisburg, PA to Erie, PA and across northern Ohio in the late 1860s and 1870s. Also, he made several trips back to Belgium and one was to attend his mother's funeral, Louise Renee (PLANTE') CARLIER who died in 1878.

Two years later 1880, while on a consult in Toledo, he had a massive stroke and died. He was 39 years old.

Ida was married previously to BURDICK and they had a daughter Lettie Mae BURDICK. Arthur adopted her later. Then they had 1) Infant son 1874 stillborn. 2) George Emile CARLIER (my grandfather) and Maude Louise CARLIER MONK (1877-1924). Then my uncle stated that Ida Mae CLOSE died in 1882 at age of 33.

Hi Bonnie, Christiane, bonjour à tous,

Please find hereafter my translation (????) of the marriage record between Charles Everitt WHITMORE and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 september 1871 Dunkirk.

AD59 DUNKERQUE > 5 Mi 27 R 088 P 942 & 943/1011

In 1871, 26 of September at 11:00 am, in front of Gustave Pierre Adolphe LEMAIRE, vice mayor, Register Officer in the city of Dunkirk, Nord Department, appeared publicly in the Town House Charles Everitt WHITMORE, Vice Consul of Her Britannic Majesty, born in Kennington, Surrey county (England) on 17 of June 1840, as it results from the birth certificate annexed to the present, living at Dunkirk, adult son of Thomas Greenslade WHITMORE and Anne Marie ARCHER, deceased at London as declared by the contractor who produced a certificate delivered to him by the Consul of Her Britannic Majesty, dated yesterday Dunkirk, stating that according to the English laws all English citizens being more than 21 years old is adult and may contract marriage without consent of its parents, this certificate which will remain annexed to the present relates the aptitude of Sieur Charles Everitt WHITMORE to contract marriage in France and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER, without occupation, born in Dunkirk on 18 of June 1846 as it results from the birth certificate part of our registry book for this year under number 359, here living with her father and mother, adult daughter of Henri Emile CARLIER, maritime pilot activity receiver, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON, both here present and consenting which required us to proceed with the marriage ceremony planned between them and whose publications have been made front main door of the Dunkirk Town House on Sundays 10 and 17 of this month at noon, no opposition to the said marriage having been presented to us, granting their request, after reading of all records here above mentioned and Chapter VI under Napoleon Code about rights and obligations of both spouses, on our inquiry, future husband and wife have told us that it was not made a marriage contract, we requested the groom and the bride if they wish to be caught for husband and wife, each one of them having answered separately and affirmatively, we declare on behalf of the Law that Charles Everitt WHITMORE and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER are linked by the marriage of what we drew up act in presence of Jules Benjamin CARLIER, wholesale merchant, 60 years old, uncle with the female contractor, living at Bordeaux, of Emile Marie CARLIER, ingénieur des Ponts et Chaussées (Roads & Bridges Engineer), Chevalier de la Légion d’Honneur, 42 years old, cousin with the female contractor, living at Dunkirk, of Edouard Kerrich (?) HUSSEY, wholesale merchant, 26 years old, living at London and Vincent Philp YGLESIAS, proprietary, 26 years old, living also at London and have the contracting parties, female contractor parents and witnesses signed with us the record after reading.

Remark: I have some doubt with one of the witnesses: Edouard Kerrich (?) HUSSEY. I don't know whether Kerrich (if properly written) is a second name or part of the last name.

Christian

Hi Bonnie, François, et bonjour à tous.
I continued my search on the familysearch website of the mormons today. No matter what search criteria I use, I cannot find the marriage of CARLIER x CLOSE that must have been late 1860s or early 1870s ( before the birth of George Emile in 1875) It has probably not been indexed yet.
However, I found Maud CARLIER born in Pennsylvania in 1877, died in 1924, daughter of Arthur E CARLIER and Ida CLOSE, so she is a sister of George Emile. Bonnie is confirming that information in her last post.

THANK YOU so much Bonnie for going through your notes and what you have about your family.
Given the last information that you give us: Arthur kept a journal where he mentions going to the funeral of his mother Louise Renée PLANTE in Belgium. Now, we know the name PLANTE comes from her son, and his mother was not a THOMPSON.
I think that we can conclude that the couple Henri Emile CARLIER x Louise Catherine THOMPSON (married 1839 in England) are not the parents of Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida CLOSE and Emilie Louise CARLIER x WHITMORE. We were on a wrong track.

Bonnie, do you know where in Belgium Louise Renée PLANTE died in 1878? Does Arthur mentions in his journal the name of the town where the funeral took place? That might be a way to track the family in Belgium.

Have a good day
Christiane

Christiane,

The only mention of a city was Dunkirk when saying that (George Emile 1839-1852) and Emily Louise (1843-1874) had been buried there. And that Arthur was buried in Toledo, Ohio.

There was also a note saying that Louise Renee was very well educated.

Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
It's too bad you don't have more details.
I looked up the 10-year death index of Dunkerque (Dunkirk) for 1873-1882 and there is no death in the name of PLANTE and no CARLIER Emily Louise. Why would they be buried in Dunkerque if they did not die in that town?

I also checked the 1843-1852 death index of Dunkerque and there is no Georges Emile CARLIER either. So, I am really puzzled!
We will have to keep looking...
Christiane

I have to say... I'm disappointed, but mostly I'm grateful for all the work you and the others have done. Sometimes knowing where you're not connected helps to find where you are. I'll never stop searching!

Hi Bonnie,
I understand your disappointment, and I am sorry we could not get on the right track to find your CARLIER ancestors.
I could try to get some help at the Family History Center ( mormon center) where I do some French research, but I won't have the time to go next week . They have a limited subscription to Ancestry.com that is very helpful to find census records, immigration records, and others.
Maybe there are a few more things we can find about Arthur Emile CARLIER and his wife Ida Mae CLOSE, as well as his parents Henri Emile CARLIER and Renée Louise PLANTE that would tell us where they came from in Belgium.
In the meanwhile, look if you have any other bits of information that might give us some clue to locate them
Cheers,
Christiane
P.S. I noticed your father and my father (1905-1977) were contemporaries

Bonsoir Bonnie et Christiane

Il serait bien de remettre soit par Sosa, soit par génération la liste des ascendants de Bonnie, sur dunkerque, juste avec les dates ou approximatives.
Pour recentrer les recherches, Mon américain date de la 4ème !!!

Laurent

Bonjour Laurent,
Le problème est que l'ascendance et les actes que nous avons trouvé à Dunkerque ne semblent pas être les ancêtres de Bonnie. Nous avons finalement établi, grace aux notes qu'elle possède, que son arrière-arrière grandpère était marié (en Belgique) avec Louise Renée PLANTE et non pas en Grande Bretagne avec Louise Catherine THOMPSON comme le pensait Stephane dans message #2.

En conséquence l'ascendance suivante est valide, mais il ne semble pas que ce soit celle de Bonnie.
Generation 1
Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER
Marie Jacqueline Elene LEFERE
Generation 2
Louis Joseph CARLIER né 19/12/1764 à Bergues ( voir image)
x 02/01/1792 Dunkerque
Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY née 25/12/1768 à Dunkerque
Generation 3
Henri Emile CARLIER né 26/12/1799 Dunkerque (voir image) + 01/09/1875 Anvers, Belgique
x 3 aout 1839 Chelsea, Middelsex, Angleterre retranscrit le 9 oct. 1839 à Dunkerque
Louise Catherine THOMPSON, fille de William George
(image dans la galerie)
Génération 4
15/05/1840 Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER
15/04/1843 William Emile George CARLIER + 1871 Dunkerque
19/06/1846 Emilie Louise CARLIER

Il y a similarité dans les prénoms et dates de naissance des 3 enfants du couple CARLIER x THOMPSON, ce qui est troublant, mais d'aprés les notes que Bonnie possède, Louise Renée PLANTE meurt en 1878 et son fils Arthur Emile qui a émigré aux U.S. vers 1865-70, écrit dans son journal qu'il est retourné en Belgique pour ses funérailles. On ne peut pas douter qu'il connait le nom de sa mère!
Bien sur, si quelqu'un trouve des éléments qui disprouvent PLANTE, il est le bienvenu.
Cordialement,
Christiane

Re Bonnie et Christiane

J'ai regardé dans la base belge, je n'ai pas trouvé le nom PLANTE.
C'est vrai qu'il y a beaucoup de similitude dans les prénoms.
Est ce que cela ne serait pas un Nom avec son titre.
Ex: THOMPSON Sieur de PLANTE ou l'inverse, l'angleterre est toujours sous la royauté ???
autre exemple à Dunkerque, on trouve TAVERNE de COUDECASTEELE quelque fois nommé Sieur TAVERNE et d'autres le Sieur de COUDECASTEELE et c'est la même personne.

Laurent

I'm wondering if there is a list of cemeteries in Dunkirk as well as list of who is buried there? Any suggestions about that? Seems all were buried there except Arthur. Does anyone know if it was customary for one to die in Belgium and be buried in Dunkirk? I realize they are close, but just wondering...

Bonnie

Bonjour à tous,
Traduction du message de Bonnie pour tous les colistiers:
Je me demande si il existe une liste de cimetieres de Dunkerque et une liste de ceux qui y sont enterrés. Est-ce que quelqu'un a une idée. Il semblerait qu'ils étaient tous enterrés là, except Arthur. Est-ce que quelqu'un sait si c'était une habitude pour quelqu'un mort en Belgique d'être enterré à Dunkerque? Je réalise que c'est proche, et je me pose la question.

Ci dessous je demande à Bonnie si elle est sure de l'orthographe "Dunkirk" parce que certains noms en Belgique peuvent ressembler Je lui demande si elle a le journal de Arthur où il écrit dans ses notes être retourné en Belgique, pour vérifier l'orthographe

To Bonnie:
I translated above your last message because people of the region might know and I don't.
Are you sure of the spelling "Dunkirk" because in Belgium some town names can be similar. Do you have the journal of Arthur where he writes in his notes going back to Belgium, to check the spelling of the town ?
Have a good Sunday and Happy Mother's Day.
Christiane

Hi Christiane, Happy Mother's Day to you and all mothers on this forum!

I am sure of the spelling of Dunkirk. And I would give my right arm to see Arthur's diary! According to my uncle's notes all of the family info was given to his sister Ruth and after her death, to her daughter, Debby. My Aunt has been trying to find Debby to see if she has any of that information.

There is something I read in my uncle's notes that I don't understand.
He said our family was traced back to the Walloon section, yet never mentions a specific town. Walloon: "It is in this southern region of Belgium where the ancestry of our CARLIER family has been traced."

"A former Belgium Ambassador to the US (late 1950s) stated in a letter to me (my uncle) that the name 'CARLIER' has existed for centuries in the Tournai, Belgium and Douai, France areas."

He said the 'CARLIERS' belonged to the aristocracy of France. I don't really know what that means.

Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
Tournai is indeed in the province of Hainaut, in the Wallon part of Belgium.
Yesterday I posted a message in a forum of Hainaut where I am a member. I asked if somebody could find a marriage CARLIER X PLANTE in 1838. So far, no answer.
It's a little bit like throwing a bottle in the ocean, but I thought it was worth trying.
Christiane

A toutes les colistières du forum
Bonnie leur souhaite une bonne Fête des Mères parce que ici aux US c'est aujour'dhui

Thank you Christiane... hope you hear something back!