Christiane,

I hate to ask for more since you've already been so generous... but... could you please transcribe message #4? That one really has me puzzled. No rush of course... I still have plenty to review! So exciting... thank you so much!
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
No problem with helping , this is what forum members do. I translated first the messages and records regarding your direct line of ascendants, and that was giving you quite a bit of information to digest in two days, that's why I stopped!

Here is the content of message # 4 from Alain

Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER born 1740 died 1788
married February 29, 1764 in Bergues, St Peter parish with
Marie Jacqueline Guislaine LEFEBVRE, born 1729, died 1790

This couple are the parents of Louis Joseph CARLIER born in december 1764 and married in 1792. Notice that the spelling went from LEFEBVRE to LEFERE. It is not unusual for that period. Priests were using phonetic spelling.

Now, going back to your ancestor Henri Emile CARLIER (1799-1875), he had a brother:
Jean Joseph CARLIER, born 19 April 1794 in Dunkerque, died in 1874 in Paris. He was an agent in maritime transactions as an occupation.
Married 4 December 1844 with Clementine PERRIER born in 1802 Dunkerque, died 1880 in Paris
That couple CARLIER x PERRIER had 1 son:
Louis Joseph CARLIER born 20 March 1846 Paris, died 1921 Paris
Married 1872 with Marguerite ARNAUDTIZON born 1862 in LE HAVRE ( Normandy), died in 1908 in Paris

The couple CARLIER x ARNAUDTIZON had 4 children as follows:
1- Madeleine born 1872 died 1958 married with Charles COLLOT
2- Ludovic who died in 1873
3- Pierre Léon born 1877, died 29 September 1923? General Consul of France in Usbuk (Turkey) married with Germaine BAROIS born 1886, died 1981 (had 3 children)
4- Marianne born 5 May 1882, in Domont, department of Val d'Oise, died 6 september 1977 in Lesneven, department of Finistere (Britanny)
married with Edmond Jules Hippolyte ALLAIN-LAUNAY born 18 december 1878 in Paris, died 17 April 1924 in Domont. He was chief engineer at the "Gaz and Electricity of France" Company.

So these are also descendants of your ancestors Louis CARLIER x Marie HOCKEDEY and therefore your "cousins" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .
If you have any questions about the contents of all messages ( records, trancriptions, details, or more general questions) don't hesitate to ask. This is how this forum works: we all ask questions, whoever knows the answers, gives it, and everyone can benefit from the answers.
Cheers
Christiane

bonjour,

je suis parti dans l'hypothèse que vous vous trompiez dans le nom de l'épouse en indiquant PLANTE au départ.
Par contre comment vous vous avez eu le nom PLANTE ?
Aucun acte en Amérique ne met THOMSON ?

Stéphane

Bonjour Stephane,

I tried to translate your message to English in MSWord and this is what I came up with:

Hello, I went in the event that you are mistaken in the name of the wife by indicating plant initially. However how you you had the plant name? No act in America does THOMSON?
Stéphane

If I understand, you want to know how I had PLANTE' in the first request. I have a collection of info from my Uncle who tried to track our ancestors as far back as possible. He could not find anything beyond Henri and Louise. In his records were Henry Emile CARLIER and Louise Renee PLANTE'. I did find a Louise PLANTE' nee MESLET in records in USA but didn't think that was it. (And I do not know what "nee" means.)
Thanks you,
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,

Thanks to the translation you have answered the question ask by Stéphane and in fact the question was already part of the very first message n°2.
Indeed, your initial request was abut the following family:

Henry Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) Born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, France.
He married Louise Renee PLANTE (1821-1878) in 1838 in Belgium. She too born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, Fr. They had three children:

1) George Emile CARTIER - (1839-1852) died when he was 13.
2) Dr. Arthur Emile CARTIER (1841-1880) studied at University of Paris and became a surgeon. Came to US in late 1860's. He married Ida MAE (Close) CARLIER and lived in Ohio. He traveled around northern Ohio into Pennsylvania practicing medicine. It was said that he would work at a cheese factory from time to time when he was low on funds and used that for medical supplies. He was called to Toledo, OH for at a consultation when he had a stroke and died. He was buried in Toledo.
3) Emily Louise CARLIER - (1843-1874) no other info for her.

Further to the various contributions we are now in front of another family:

Henri Emile CARLIER born 21 december 1799 Dunkirk, France
Married with THOMPSON Louise Catherine born around 1809 London, on 2 august 1839 Upper-Chelsea, England
They had children:

1) Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER born 15 may 1840 Dunkirk, France
2) William emile George CARLIER born 14 april 1840 Dunkirk, France
3) Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER born 18 june 1846 Dunkirk, France

For sure, the main difference is about Louise Renée PLANTE, furthermore your couple is supposed to have been married in Belgium. We also have a huge difference on Henri Emile CARLIER birth.
Informations collected through this forum seems correct and are justified with records.

One way to be sure that the new family is really part of your ancestors is to start from Arthur Emile CARLIER married with Ida MAE. When you write ...MAE (Close)..., I suppose that the name MAE is uncertain or difficult to read. Have you the record corresponding to this marriage? Usually, names of parents are included and it is a good way to verify whether we arre speaking about PLANTE or THOMPSON.

Remark:
In your last message, you explain you found a Louise PLANTE nee MESLET in records in USA. I have not the origin of the information, in a french text or record nee could be "née", let say born for a daughter or "né" for a son.
Not always but it is frequent, when a mother registers a child born prior to the marriage, the child is declared in the record under the name of the mother and later, if the mother get married, the child is recognised by both father and mother for legitimation purpose. Birth records are not always rectified with this legitimation and it is useful to keep in mind the initial name of the child.
It is a possible explaination.

Christian

Ce message a été modifié par cfacon - 10/05/2012 à 14:00.

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christian et Stephane,

Thank you Christian for your intervention and since you write so well in English I don't need to write my answer in both english and french.
First, I have to specify that Mae is a first name ( un prénom ) for girls.
Second, the problem with research in the US is that married women are often not under their maiden name after marriage.
So when Bonnie said that Arthur married Ida Mae CARLIER, Ida Mae was her first and middle names and CARLIER was most likely her married name. Bonnie could confirm this

Hi Bonnie,
I agree with Christian and Stephane that we found a line of ancestors that I checked with records, but the fact remains that the name PLANTE that you gave us at the beginning bring some doubts that we are on the right track with the right ancestors. PLANTE and THOMPSON are not even phonetically close.

Something remains coherent between what you gave us in your first message:
1) George Emile Carlier - (1839-1852)
2) Dr. Arthur Emile Carlier (1841-1880)
3) Emily Louise Carlier - (1843-1874)

and the births records we found:
15 May 1840 birth of Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER
15 April 1843 birth of William Emile George CARLIER -
09 June 1846 birth of Emilie Louise CARLIER,
except that the mother is THOMPSON and not PLANTE
I just found that William Emile George died in 1871 in Dunkerque at age 28 (not 13)
I did not find any PLANTE in the 1873-1882 death tables in Dunkerque. I did not find any THOMPSON either.

Bonnie wrote that Henri Emile CARLIER died in Belgium, and that is what I found in the French transcription of his death record in Anvers ( Antwerp ) says.

Like Christian, I think that you should return to Arthur and find his parents through his death and marriage records in the US. You might even have to start with the records about your grandfather if you don't have them, to make sure you are on the right track and with the right information.

One way to do research free, is to go to the Family History Center (Mormon) of your area. You don't have to be a Mormon. They are very helpful no matter your religious affiliation. I go to mine once a week to do my French research.
Right now I have to go but I will get back to you if I find something or if I think of something else.
Cheers
Amicalement à tous,
Christiane

Just wanted to clarify that Ida Mae's maiden name is CLOSE. Sorry about how I wrote it in the first message. (Close).

I am going over info that I had searched for in the past from familysearch.org. © 2012 IRI A service provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. May be the same as you mentioned.

I'm trying to see if I can find more.

Thank you everyone.
Bonnie

I found this info for a Louise MESLET or PLANTE'.

"Belgium, Antwerp Police I...igration Index, 1840-1930
DGS Film Number
4331460
4331461
4331462
4331463
4331464
4331465

Meslet (Vve), nee' Plante', Louise #38373"

Not sure what this means... Vve? Police?

Hi Bonnie
I think these might be microfilm numbers of an index of immigration to Belgium. Maybe in Belgiume it's the police who makes immigration indexes.

MESLET (Vve) née PLANTE would mean MESLET (widow) born PLANTE
which would mean a person born PLANTE who married MESLET. But, how does that relate to the CARLIER?

I did a bit of research on the mormon website Familysearch (Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter Day Saints)
With a “CARLIER” search I get too many answers in different States.

You say Georges Emile CARLIER was your grandfather. Did you know your grandparents when you were young or did you learn their names from the papers of your uncle?
Do you know the first name and maiden name of your grandmother? Do you know when ( approximatively) did you grandparents got married and where?. I might have found something but I want to know if I am on the right track

Cheers
Christiane

I knew my grandmother. My grandfather died 7-4-1941, before I was born in 1947.


Anna (Annie) Elizabeth SPINK CARLIER. Her dad was W.A. PARSH OR PARSCH.


They were married May 2, 1900 in Dayton, Ohio.

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christiane, bonjour à tous,

I did the exercice with the informations collected on LDS site. Starting from Arthur, I have the following tree:

Arthur CARLIER born Pennsylvania
married with
Ida CLARE or CLOSE depending of the source on LDS site

I found only one child for Arthur and Ida

George E. CARLIER born 6 october 1875 Erie, Pennsylvania, dead 4 july 1941 Dayton, Montgomery, Ohio, buried 7 july 1941 Woodland
married on 2 may 1900 Montgomery Co, Ohio with
Annie E. SPINK born either 1882 Elyra, Illinois or october 1881 Ohio (father: W.A. SPINK, mother Eliza PARSH)

I found five children for this family:

1) Newell CARLIER born 16 march 1901 Dayton, Montgomery
2) Ida May CARLIER born 11 june 1906 Mad River Twp, Montgomery, Ohio
3) Ruth Muriel CARLIER born 21 november 1907 Mad River Twp, Montgomery, Ohio, dead 19 january 1988 Freno, California
4) Charles Wilbur CARLIER born around 1912, married on (confidential) Lehigh Co, Pennsylvania with Ellen D. LOBST (father: Raymond LOBST, mother: Serena KERCHNER)
5) Albert Laverne CARLIER born around (confidential), married on (confidential) Lehigh Co, Pennsylvania with Evelyn Guth (?) SCHARADIN (father: Chas. (Charles?) SCHARADIN, mother: Sallie GUTH). To be confirmed since I am in trouble with married name and maiden name.

Remark: According to the rules on this forum we are not allowed to disclose date lower than 100 years from now. I put (confidential) despite the date(s) is (are) available on LDS site.

With the reference to your last message, we speak about the same people and you probably know much more about the five children. Now the target is to learn a little bit more about Arthur CARLIER and Ida CLARE or CLOSE to study the opportunity to connect those people and at least Arthur to what we found in Dunkirk. Thanks to Stephane and Christiane we have obtained a possible track but we need to be defitinely confident with the solution.

For your information, Charles Everitt WHITMORE, son-in-law of Henri Emile CARLIER dead at Antwerp, married Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 septembre 1871 Dunkirk. At this time he was Vice Consul for UK and based at Dunkirk. Both Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON were present at the ceremony.

Christian

There were 8 children. Added to this list is Verona CARLIER WALLACE (102 in June and lives in Arizona), Gladys CARLIER MATHIAS (lived in Allentown, PA but now deceased. She is supposed to be in Woman's Who's Who.) and my father George Emile CARLIER (1905-1978).

For your information, Charles Everitt WHITMORE, son-in-law of Henri Emile CARLIER dead at Antwerp, married Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 septembre 1871 Dunkirk. At this time he was Vice Consul for UK and based at Dunkirk. Both Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON were present at the ceremony.

I would be so thrilled to know for sure about this marriage. My uncle said there were no records of Emilie other than parents, birth and death.


Thank you so much Christian. It almost seems like a generation is missing since there is a space of around 20 years. I appreciate all your info. I have seen the Ida CLARE also, but it really is CLOSE.



Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
Thank you to use the button "rep.rapide" for your answers.
cordially

Oh thank you. Will I ever get this... *;* So sorry!

Bonjour Bonnie et François,
I made also a search on Familysearch website yesterday, and like you, I found the marriage George E. CARLIER x Annie SPINK.
George CARLIER is 24, born in Pennsylvania? Annie SPINK is 18 born in Illinois?
Here is an image of their marriage licence which establishes the names of their parents Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida Mae CLOSE and W. A. SPINK x Eliza PARSH.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30326
This licence is signed May 2, 1900

From there, I feel we need some records to establish a link with Henri Emile CARLIER (1799-1875) x THOMPSON whose records I found in Dunkerque. Otherwise we might be on the wrong track.

The website of Familysearch has a lot of information that has been submitted by people and has not been verified, so we need records to check what we find. Fortunately, they now put images of records on their website so we need to keep looking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Christiane

Okay. I read over my records from my uncle again and have some personal things I can share. Also, I've wondered if there could be any records from the University of Paris from the 1850's that might show Arthur's parents. He studied there and after getting his doctorate degree, he went back and became a surgeon. I haven't had any luck but it could be that one of you may know something about those records.

According to a daily journal Arthur kept, he came to USA in late 1860s and practiced medicine from Harrisburg, PA to Erie, PA and across northern Ohio in the late 1860s and 1870s. Also, he made several trips back to Belgium and one was to attend his mother's funeral, Louise Renee (PLANTE') CARLIER who died in 1878.

Two years later 1880, while on a consult in Toledo, he had a massive stroke and died. He was 39 years old.

Ida was married previously to BURDICK and they had a daughter Lettie Mae BURDICK. Arthur adopted her later. Then they had 1) Infant son 1874 stillborn. 2) George Emile CARLIER (my grandfather) and Maude Louise CARLIER MONK (1877-1924). Then my uncle stated that Ida Mae CLOSE died in 1882 at age of 33.

Hi Bonnie, Christiane, bonjour à tous,

Please find hereafter my translation (????) of the marriage record between Charles Everitt WHITMORE and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 september 1871 Dunkirk.

AD59 DUNKERQUE > 5 Mi 27 R 088 P 942 & 943/1011

In 1871, 26 of September at 11:00 am, in front of Gustave Pierre Adolphe LEMAIRE, vice mayor, Register Officer in the city of Dunkirk, Nord Department, appeared publicly in the Town House Charles Everitt WHITMORE, Vice Consul of Her Britannic Majesty, born in Kennington, Surrey county (England) on 17 of June 1840, as it results from the birth certificate annexed to the present, living at Dunkirk, adult son of Thomas Greenslade WHITMORE and Anne Marie ARCHER, deceased at London as declared by the contractor who produced a certificate delivered to him by the Consul of Her Britannic Majesty, dated yesterday Dunkirk, stating that according to the English laws all English citizens being more than 21 years old is adult and may contract marriage without consent of its parents, this certificate which will remain annexed to the present relates the aptitude of Sieur Charles Everitt WHITMORE to contract marriage in France and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER, without occupation, born in Dunkirk on 18 of June 1846 as it results from the birth certificate part of our registry book for this year under number 359, here living with her father and mother, adult daughter of Henri Emile CARLIER, maritime pilot activity receiver, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON, both here present and consenting which required us to proceed with the marriage ceremony planned between them and whose publications have been made front main door of the Dunkirk Town House on Sundays 10 and 17 of this month at noon, no opposition to the said marriage having been presented to us, granting their request, after reading of all records here above mentioned and Chapter VI under Napoleon Code about rights and obligations of both spouses, on our inquiry, future husband and wife have told us that it was not made a marriage contract, we requested the groom and the bride if they wish to be caught for husband and wife, each one of them having answered separately and affirmatively, we declare on behalf of the Law that Charles Everitt WHITMORE and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER are linked by the marriage of what we drew up act in presence of Jules Benjamin CARLIER, wholesale merchant, 60 years old, uncle with the female contractor, living at Bordeaux, of Emile Marie CARLIER, ingénieur des Ponts et Chaussées (Roads & Bridges Engineer), Chevalier de la Légion d’Honneur, 42 years old, cousin with the female contractor, living at Dunkirk, of Edouard Kerrich (?) HUSSEY, wholesale merchant, 26 years old, living at London and Vincent Philp YGLESIAS, proprietary, 26 years old, living also at London and have the contracting parties, female contractor parents and witnesses signed with us the record after reading.

Remark: I have some doubt with one of the witnesses: Edouard Kerrich (?) HUSSEY. I don't know whether Kerrich (if properly written) is a second name or part of the last name.

Christian

Hi Bonnie, François, et bonjour à tous.
I continued my search on the familysearch website of the mormons today. No matter what search criteria I use, I cannot find the marriage of CARLIER x CLOSE that must have been late 1860s or early 1870s ( before the birth of George Emile in 1875) It has probably not been indexed yet.
However, I found Maud CARLIER born in Pennsylvania in 1877, died in 1924, daughter of Arthur E CARLIER and Ida CLOSE, so she is a sister of George Emile. Bonnie is confirming that information in her last post.

THANK YOU so much Bonnie for going through your notes and what you have about your family.
Given the last information that you give us: Arthur kept a journal where he mentions going to the funeral of his mother Louise Renée PLANTE in Belgium. Now, we know the name PLANTE comes from her son, and his mother was not a THOMPSON.
I think that we can conclude that the couple Henri Emile CARLIER x Louise Catherine THOMPSON (married 1839 in England) are not the parents of Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida CLOSE and Emilie Louise CARLIER x WHITMORE. We were on a wrong track.

Bonnie, do you know where in Belgium Louise Renée PLANTE died in 1878? Does Arthur mentions in his journal the name of the town where the funeral took place? That might be a way to track the family in Belgium.

Have a good day
Christiane

Christiane,

The only mention of a city was Dunkirk when saying that (George Emile 1839-1852) and Emily Louise (1843-1874) had been buried there. And that Arthur was buried in Toledo, Ohio.

There was also a note saying that Louise Renee was very well educated.

Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
It's too bad you don't have more details.
I looked up the 10-year death index of Dunkerque (Dunkirk) for 1873-1882 and there is no death in the name of PLANTE and no CARLIER Emily Louise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Why would they be buried in Dunkerque if they did not die in that town?

I also checked the 1843-1852 death index of Dunkerque and there is no Georges Emile CARLIER either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So, I am really puzzled!
We will have to keep looking...
Christiane