CARLIER X PLANTE (ou THOMSON), Dunkerque Options

[bhowell]

Hello,

I have been searching for a few months now and I desperately need some help. I told my aunt I would find out who her great, great grandparents were and I just keep coming up with dead ends. As she is nearing 102 in June, I want to get this info for her as soon as I can.

The info I do have (from a family member) is this:

Henry Emile Carlier (1817-1875) Born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, France.
He married Louise Renee Plante (1821-1878) in 1838 in Belgium. She too born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, Fr. They had three children:

1) George Emile Carlier - (1839-1852) died when he was 13.
2) Dr. Arthur Emile Carlier (1841-1880) studied at University of Paris and became a surgeon. Came to US in late 1860's. He married Ida Mae (Close) Carlier and lived in Ohio. He traveled around northern Ohio into Pennsylvania practicing medicine. It was said that he would work at a cheese factory from time to time when he was low on funds and used that for medical supplies. He was called to Toledo, OH for at a consultation when he had a stroke and died. He was buried in Toledo.
3) Emily Louise Carlier - (1843-1874) no other info for her.

Arthur had three children, George Emile, Sr. was one of them and he was my grandfather. His son was George Emile Carlier, Jr., my dad.

The biggest problem is that I don't know what region in Belgium they were from and I don't know where to begin looking. Any suggestions regarding where I might go for information, would be greatly appreciated. Since I am on a very limited income, I cannot pay to join the various websites. Other spellings might be Carlior, Charlier, Carler,

Thank you so much for any suggestions,
BHowell

Ce message a été modifié par dlarchet - 05/05/2012 à 23:24.

Raison de l'édition : rectification du titre compte tenu des apports ultérieurs

[svangrootenbruel...]

bonjour Bhowell,

ce n'est pas PLANTE mais THOMPSON (je ne sais pas où vous avez trouvé PLANTE)
votre recherche est sur Dunkerque (et pas Lille)

sinon, je pense que c'est cette famille dont il est question:

µfilm 5 Mi 27 r 076 - 903/1242
° 19/06/1846 Dunkerque de CARLIER Emilie Louise fille de Henri Louis CARLIER négociant, 46ans, ° Dunkerque et de Louis Catherine THOMPSON, 37ans, ° Londres.

µfilm 5 mi 27 r 036 - 308/1084
° 15/05/1840 de Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER de Henri Louis, négociant, ° Dunkerque et de Louise Catherine THOMPSON

le mariage CARLIER X THOMPSON a eu lieu à Chelsea , mais par chance retranscrit sur les registres de Dunkerque dans le µfilm 5 mi 27 r 051 - 402/1134

µfilm 5 mi 27 r 096 - 913/983 acte de décès de CARLIER henri emile (retranscription car il est mort à Anvers en Belgique)

je suis désolé, mais je ne parle pas américain, il faudrait que quelqu'un puisse traduire.

Stéphane

Ce message a été modifié par svangrootenbruelle - 05/05/2012 à 15:13.

[svangrootenbruel...]

j'ajoute


mariage paroisse Haut Chelsea comté Middlesex le 3 août 1839
retranscrit le 24/10/1839 à Dunkerque

CARLIER Henri Emile, célibataire, de Dunkerque, gentilhomme, de Louis Joseph CARLIER
THOMPSON Louise Catherine, célibataire, de Nohasplacechelseand, fille de William George THOMPSON

Mort de henri Emile CARLIER 75ans, né à Dunkerque, mort le 01/09/1875 à Anvers, époux de Louise Catherine THOMPSON, fils de feu Louis CARLIER et de feue Marie FOCKEDEY.
Déclaration par Everitt WHITEMORE négociant 35 ans beau fils.


µfilm 5 mi 27 r 046 - 202/920

mariage 2 janvier 1792 à DUNKERQUE

Louis Joseph CARLIER 27 ans né à Bergues St Winoc paroisse St Pierre fils de Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER et de Marie Jacqueline Elène LEFERE
Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY 23 ans fille de François Louis FOCKEDEY et de Marie GODEFROY.


Ce message a été modifié par svangrootenbruelle - 05/05/2012 à 15:30.

[† adecalonne]

Bonjour B...... , bonjour à tous,

Petit complément :

Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER ° 1740 + 1788
X 29/02/1764 Bergues Saint Pierre
Marie Jacqueline Guilaine LEFEBVRE ° 1729 + 1790.

Henri Emile CARLIER avait un frère :
- Jean Joseph ° 19/04/1794 Dunkerque Nord, + en 1874 à Paris 75 Ile de France, Agent de change comme son père et courtier maritime
X 04/12/1844 avec Clémentine PERRIER ° 1802 Dunkerque, + en 1880 à Paris. dont :

Louis joseph CARLIER ° 20/03/1846 Paris, + en 1921 à Paris,
X 1872 Marguerite ARNAUDTIZON ° 1862 Le Havre Seine Maritime Normandie, + en 1908 Paris dont 4 enfants :
- Madeleine °1872 + 1958 X Charles COLLOT
- Ludovic + 1873
- Pierre Léon ° 1877 +28/09/1923? Consul général de France à Usbuk (Turquie) x Germaine BAROIS ° 1886 + 1981 dont 3 enfants
- Marianne ° 05/03/1882 Domont 95 Val d'OISE, + 06/09/1977 Lesneven 29 Finistère Bretagne, X 12/03/1903 Edmond Jules Hippolyte ALLAIN-LAUNAY ° 18/12/1878 Paris, + 17/04/1924 Domont, Ingénieur en chef à la Cie du gaz et d'électricité dont 2 enfants.......

Cordialement.

[bhowell]

Thank you so much for helping me. Once you get information, you have to verify to make sure. Your help to me and everyone you've helped is monumental. Thank you!

[bhowell]

Thank you so much for helping me. This info is amazing.

[bhowell]

Can anyone further explain the events and dates in this post? Thank you.

[cdubrulle]

Can anyone further explain the events and dates in this post? Thank you.

Hi Bhowell ( why don't you give us your first name?)
My name is Christiane, I was born in Lille, France, and I have been living in the US for 45 years. I am going to try to help you in english.

I will start here with the content of message # 2 of this thread:
I checked the death tables in Dunkerque and found Henri Emile CARLIER on September 7, 1877, spouse of THOMPSON.
By searching for the record itself in microfilm 5 mi 27 r 096 - p.913/983 at that date, I found an interesting transcription that shows that even though he was born in Dunkerque and lived there, he died in Anvers September 1, 1875. Yes, it took 2 years for the death record to be translated , transmitted, and recorded in Dunkerque, because it went through different administrations for signature.

According to the testimony of his son-in-law Charles Everett WHITEMORE, his wife was Louise Catherine THOMPSON and he was the son of Louis CARLIER deceased, and Marie FOCKEDEY deceased,
I am going to post that record in the "Galerie" of this forum and you can click on the link below to see it and save the image if you wish.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30287
I will translate it later for you.

Stephane found the birth dates of two of the children in Dunkerque
15 May 1840 birth of Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER, son of Henri Louis CARLIER, négociant, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON ( microfilm 5 mi 27 r 036 - p.308/1084)

19 June 1846 birth of Emilie Louise CARLIER, daughter of Henri Louis CARLIER négociant, 46 years old, born in Dunkerque and of Louise Catherine THOMPSON, 37years old, born in London. ( microfilm 5 Mi 27 r 076 - p.903/12420)

I found the birth of the third one in Dunkerque
15 April 1843 birth of William Emile George CARLIER son of Henri Emile CARLIER, 42 years old, born in Dunkerque, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON, 34 years old, born in London ( microfilm 5 Mi 27 R 036 p. 931/1084)
Witnesses:
Louis Joseph CARLIER, 79 years old, grandfather of the child
Charles Louis CARLIER, 56 years old, uncle of the child.

That will be all for the moment, I will translate message # 3 in another post later
Christiane

P.S. As you will notice, on this forum we use all capital letters for the last names.
The microfilm references # are those of the Departmental Archives located in Lille and online at
http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/

[bhowell]

Christiane, I can't thank you enough! This is so helpful. My first name is Bonnie.

[cdubrulle]

Christiane, I can't thank you enough! This is so helpful. My first name is Bonnie.

Hi Bonnie,
Here is the translation of the death record of Henri Emile CARLIER found in the Dunkerque register. It is a transcription of the record received from Antwerp, Holland, where he died. The first two paragraphs are the essential part of the record. The rest is legalese and my translation of the legal terms might be slightly off but you will get the idea…

Death record of Henri Emile CARLIER (transcription)
In 1877, 7 of September at 3:00 p.m., we, Frédéric Charles d’Arras, mayor and public officer of Civil Records of the town of Dunkerque, department of Nord, in accordance with art. 4 of the Civil Code, make the following transcription:
Kingdom of Belgium, Antwerp province, City Administration of Antwerp. Translation:
On September 2, in the year of 1875, at 3:00 pm. Record of death of Henri Emile CARLIER, no occupation, 75 years old, born in Dunkerque, department of Nord in France, domiciled there, died here on September 1 of this year at 10 p.m., spouse of Louise Catherine THOMPSON, son of deceased Louis CARLIER and deceased Marie FOCKEDEY, according to a testimony made to me by Charle Everett WHITEMORE, wholesale merchant, 35 years old, son-in-law of the deceased, and by Jean Louis (STEVENS ?), employee, 39 years old, who knew the deceased, both domiciled here. So made in double copies here, at City Hall by me, Official of the City of Antwerp, officer of Civil Records, and this after having checked the said death, and after the reading of the present document the witnesses have signed with me. Was signed C.E. WHITEMORE and L . STEVENS and A. VAN DEN NEST.
For authenticated copy, as executed in accordance with art. 80 of the Civil Code. Anvers, October 5, 1875. The Officer of Civil Records, signed VAN DEN NEST and sealed.
Reviewed by the tribunal of Antwerp for authentication of the signature of Mr. VAN DEN NEST, Antwerp October 6, 1875. Signed VAN CATEAU and sealed.
Reviewed by the Justice Department for authentication of the signature of Mr. VAN CATEAU. Brussels, February 12, 1876. The General Secretary. Signed PUTZEYS and sealed.
Reviewed for the authentication of the signature of Mr. PUTZEYS. Brussels, March 1, 1876
For the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director, signed E. BANNING and sealed
Reviewed for the authentication of the signature of Mr. BANNING. Brussels, March 23, 1876
For the General Consul, substituted by the Chancellor. Signed Eugene CHAPAY and sealed. Paris, March 7, 1877
Reviewed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. For the Vice-director chief of the chancellery. Signed DUBOIS and sealed
For copy authenticated at day, month, and year above

That's it.

Now, I went of the Dunkerque Archives website and I found the transcription of his marriage record in 1839 in Chelsea England. It was translated from English to French and written in the Dunkerque's records and I made a scan, but I have to read it and translate it, so it will be in the next post.
Write to you soon...
Christiane

P.S. When you answer a post, to avoid repeating a long text you can delete part of that message and keep only what is essential. In doing so, be careful to keep the "quote" word between brackets at the beginning of what your are keeping and the "/quote" word between brackets at the end. I know, it is not easy.

[bhowell]

This is so wonderful! Thank you so much!

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie, it's me again.
Here is a link to the scan of the marriage transcription CARLIER x THOMPSON, in the Dunkerque records and below is my translation. The record was in 2 parts, one at the bottom of a page, the rest at the top of the following page, so I “stitched” the 2 scans together to make a single record.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30289

Marriage of Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON ( my translation )
In the year 1839, on October 24th, 2:00 p.m. before us, François Benjamin Joseph DELATTRE, mayor pro-tem ( vice mayor?) to act for civil records of the town of Dunkerque, we have, as required by Article 72 of the Civil Code, done the following transcription:
Translation.
1839 - Marriage celebrated in the parish church of Upper-Chelsea, Middlesex County
The table shows
Date of marriage: August 2, 1839
Family names and first names: Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON
Age: "Major" (age not specified but they are not minors)
Status: both singles.
Rank or occupation: gentleman
Residence at time of marriage: Dunkerque for him and (rohansplace?), Chelsea for her
Name and first name of fathers: Louis Joseph CARLIER and William George THOMPSON
Rank or occupation of the fathers: Gentleman and the other is deceased
Married in the parish church, according to rites and ceremonies of the established church with dispensation from me, W. NIVEN.
The marriage has been celebrated between Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON
In the presence of ( signatures) BARSLER, CARLIER, THOMPSON, GOODEVE, PLUMMER, THOMPSON
-----------------------------------------------
What precedes is a true copy, taken from the marriage register of the Upper Chelsea parish, county of Middlesex. The 3rd day of August 1839, by me . Signed Henri VAUGHAN, clercq of the church of the Trinity.
Translated by the undersigned, certified translator of the English language, from an original document that I signed and gave back.
In Dunkerque, August 29, 1839. Signed DEBAERT
Seen at the French Consulate for authentication of the signature of Mr. Henri VAUGHAN, officer at the Trinity church in the parish of ------Chelsea in the County of Middlesex,
London, October 15, 1839, signed DURAND and Mr. General Consul, signed Gautier ----?
Copy conforming to the original
Signature.
End of my translaton
Since you know now the place in England, you might be able to find the original record in english and more information about Louise Catherine THOMPSON and her father William George THOMPSON.

Christiane

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour Danielle,
J’ai posté par erreur 2 fois la même image du décès de Henri Emile CARLIER avec 2 dates différentes.
L’une est marquée 1675 et c’est celle qui est en erreur. Pourriez-vous s’il vous plait l’enlever de la Galerie ?
La bonne date est 1875!
Merci d’avance.
Christiane

[bhowell]

Thank you so much Christiane. I will never forget your kindness. I sent a letter to my aunt today to tell her. I'm so glad I could finally let her know who her great great grandparents were. ... she will be 102 in June. Again, thank you so much! You are truly a blessing.
Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
I am glad I can help you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) and I have some more information for you
We know from the death record in 1875 that Henri Emile CARLIER is the son of Louis Joseph CARLIER and Marie FOCKEDEY

Here is the translation of the information posted in message #3 by Stephane about the marriage CARLIER x FOCKEDEY
January 2, 1792 marriage in Dunkerque of
Louis Joseph CARLIER, 27 years old, born in Bergues St Winoc, St Peter's parish, son of Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER and Marie Jacqueline Elene LEFERE
x with
Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY, 23 years old, daughter of François Louis FOCKEDEY and Marie GODEFROY
I found the record in microfilm 5 Mi 27R 046 [M 1791-1794] page 200,
and I can add the names of the witnesses to the marriage:
Jean Baptiste CARLIER, merchant brewer, a cousin of the groom
Pierre LEFERE, Cousin of the groom
Francois Louis FOCKEDEY, merchant brewer, father of the bride
Francois Louis FOCKEDEY, brother of the bride

I noticed in the next record that the sister of Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY, whose name is Thérèse Cécile HOCKEDEY got married the same day ( January 2, 1792) with Pierre Francois LEFEBVRE.

With the age of Henri Emile CARLIER at the birth of this children I figured roughly his birth year around 1800 and looked for his birth in Dunkerque records.

Dunkerque, microfilm 5 Mi 27 R 027 page 998 we have record # 327
Year 8 of the French Republic, 5 Nivose ( 26 December 1799)
Record of the birth of Henri Emile CARLIER, born the day before yesterday ( the 24th) son of Louis Joseph CARLIER, native of Bergues, St Martin parish, and Marie Jeanne Elizabeht FOCKEDEY
Witnesses Louis Joseph ROUZE, 27 years old, wholesale merchnant, and Thérèse Lucie VANHANDT 23 years old, wife of Jean François FOCKEDEY, brewer, uncle and aunt per marriage of the newborn and living in this town.
Signed FOCKEDEY, CARLIER, VANHANDT, ROUZE, (and the name of the clercq unreadable)

Now for the cherry on top!
In microfilm 5 Mi 27 R 020 [B 1762-1770] page 895, we have record # 983
December 26, 1768
Baptism of Marie Jeanne Elizabeth FOCKEDEY born the 25th
daughter of François Louis FOCKEDEY, native of Dunkerque
and Marie GODEFROY also of Dunkerque
Godfather: Jean Baptiste GODEFROY
Godmother: Elizabeth PERDU, widow of Pierre FOCKEDEY

I know it's a lot of stuff to digest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) and if you have any questions about these records or about these ancestors, please don't hesitate to ask. This forum is there to help.
Good night
Christiane

[bhowell]

Anvers, Antwerp, Antwerpen - are these all the same place?

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie,

Definitively yes. Anvers for French people, Antwerp for British and Antwerpen for Dutch or Flemish. Antwerp is the capital of Antwerp Province of Flanders in Belgium.

Christian

Ce message a été modifié par cfacon - 08/05/2012 à 16:28.

[cdubrulle]

Definitively yes. Anvers for French people, Antwerp for British and Antwerpen for Dutch or Flemish. Antwerp is the capital of Antwerp Province of Flanders in Belgium.

Hi Bonnie,
As Christian said, Anvers and Antwerp are the same and are located in the Flandre province of Belgium I used the term Antwerp in my translation because I was writing in english.

Here is another supplement for you and your aunt
In microfilm 5 Mi 25 R 010 Bergues (St Pierre parish) [B 1759-1780] page 138/1059

19 December 1764
Baptism of Louis Joseph CARLIER
son of Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER, native of Dunkerque ( Dunkirk in english)
and Marie Jacqueline Helene LEFERE, native of Crochte ( it is near Bergues)
Godfather: François LEROY
Godmother: Jeanne Angélique OUTTERS
Here is the link to the image in the Galerie
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30301

Bergues is about 8 miles from Dunkerque
Crochte is about 2 miles from Bergues.

Because the images of records are online on the Departmental Archives of Nord website, we are not supposed to post them in the Galerie any longer to avoid loading the Forum website. I made an exception because you do not read french and are not familiar with the French Archives website. I hope the administrator of the forum won't mind.
This morning I have been unable to load the record above. I will later when I can

Here is a link to the birth record of Henri Emile CARLIER in 1799 that I could not load earlier ( see the transcription in an earlier message)
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30302

My best wishes to your aunt. Have a good good day
Christiane

Ce message a été modifié par cdubrulle - 09/05/2012 à 02:23.

[bhowell]

Thank you again Christiane! Great info!

[bhowell]

Thank you Christian. Very helpful

[bhowell]

Christiane,

I hate to ask for more since you've already been so generous... but... could you please transcribe message #4? That one really has me puzzled. No rush of course... I still have plenty to review! So exciting... thank you so much!
Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

I hate to ask for more since you've already been so generous... but... could you please transcribe message #4? That one really has me puzzled. No rush of course... I still have plenty to review! So exciting... thank you so much!
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,
No problem with helping , this is what forum members do. I translated first the messages and records regarding your direct line of ascendants, and that was giving you quite a bit of information to digest in two days, that's why I stopped!

Here is the content of message # 4 from Alain

Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER born 1740 died 1788
married February 29, 1764 in Bergues, St Peter parish with
Marie Jacqueline Guislaine LEFEBVRE, born 1729, died 1790

This couple are the parents of Louis Joseph CARLIER born in december 1764 and married in 1792. Notice that the spelling went from LEFEBVRE to LEFERE. It is not unusual for that period. Priests were using phonetic spelling.

Now, going back to your ancestor Henri Emile CARLIER (1799-1875), he had a brother:
Jean Joseph CARLIER, born 19 April 1794 in Dunkerque, died in 1874 in Paris. He was an agent in maritime transactions as an occupation.
Married 4 December 1844 with Clementine PERRIER born in 1802 Dunkerque, died 1880 in Paris
That couple CARLIER x PERRIER had 1 son:
Louis Joseph CARLIER born 20 March 1846 Paris, died 1921 Paris
Married 1872 with Marguerite ARNAUDTIZON born 1862 in LE HAVRE ( Normandy), died in 1908 in Paris

The couple CARLIER x ARNAUDTIZON had 4 children as follows:
1- Madeleine born 1872 died 1958 married with Charles COLLOT
2- Ludovic who died in 1873
3- Pierre Léon born 1877, died 29 September 1923? General Consul of France in Usbuk (Turkey) married with Germaine BAROIS born 1886, died 1981 (had 3 children)
4- Marianne born 5 May 1882, in Domont, department of Val d'Oise, died 6 september 1977 in Lesneven, department of Finistere (Britanny)
married with Edmond Jules Hippolyte ALLAIN-LAUNAY born 18 december 1878 in Paris, died 17 April 1924 in Domont. He was chief engineer at the "Gaz and Electricity of France" Company.

So these are also descendants of your ancestors Louis CARLIER x Marie HOCKEDEY and therefore your "cousins" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .
If you have any questions about the contents of all messages ( records, trancriptions, details, or more general questions) don't hesitate to ask. This is how this forum works: we all ask questions, whoever knows the answers, gives it, and everyone can benefit from the answers.
Cheers
Christiane

[svangrootenbruel...]

bonjour,

je suis parti dans l'hypothèse que vous vous trompiez dans le nom de l'épouse en indiquant PLANTE au départ.
Par contre comment vous vous avez eu le nom PLANTE ?
Aucun acte en Amérique ne met THOMSON ?

Stéphane

[bhowell]

Bonjour Stephane,

I tried to translate your message to English in MSWord and this is what I came up with:

Hello, I went in the event that you are mistaken in the name of the wife by indicating plant initially. However how you you had the plant name? No act in America does THOMSON?
Stéphane

If I understand, you want to know how I had PLANTE' in the first request. I have a collection of info from my Uncle who tried to track our ancestors as far back as possible. He could not find anything beyond Henri and Louise. In his records were Henry Emile CARLIER and Louise Renee PLANTE'. I did find a Louise PLANTE' nee MESLET in records in USA but didn't think that was it. (And I do not know what "nee" means.)
Thanks you,
Bonnie

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie,

Thanks to the translation you have answered the question ask by Stéphane and in fact the question was already part of the very first message n°2.
Indeed, your initial request was abut the following family:

Henry Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) Born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, France.
He married Louise Renee PLANTE (1821-1878) in 1838 in Belgium. She too born in Belgium and buried in Dunkirk, Fr. They had three children:

1) George Emile CARTIER - (1839-1852) died when he was 13.
2) Dr. Arthur Emile CARTIER (1841-1880) studied at University of Paris and became a surgeon. Came to US in late 1860's. He married Ida MAE (Close) CARLIER and lived in Ohio. He traveled around northern Ohio into Pennsylvania practicing medicine. It was said that he would work at a cheese factory from time to time when he was low on funds and used that for medical supplies. He was called to Toledo, OH for at a consultation when he had a stroke and died. He was buried in Toledo.
3) Emily Louise CARLIER - (1843-1874) no other info for her.

Further to the various contributions we are now in front of another family:

Henri Emile CARLIER born 21 december 1799 Dunkirk, France
Married with THOMPSON Louise Catherine born around 1809 London, on 2 august 1839 Upper-Chelsea, England
They had children:

1) Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER born 15 may 1840 Dunkirk, France
2) William emile George CARLIER born 14 april 1840 Dunkirk, France
3) Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER born 18 june 1846 Dunkirk, France

For sure, the main difference is about Louise Renée PLANTE, furthermore your couple is supposed to have been married in Belgium. We also have a huge difference on Henri Emile CARLIER birth.
Informations collected through this forum seems correct and are justified with records.

One way to be sure that the new family is really part of your ancestors is to start from Arthur Emile CARLIER married with Ida MAE. When you write ...MAE (Close)..., I suppose that the name MAE is uncertain or difficult to read. Have you the record corresponding to this marriage? Usually, names of parents are included and it is a good way to verify whether we arre speaking about PLANTE or THOMPSON.

Remark:
In your last message, you explain you found a Louise PLANTE nee MESLET in records in USA. I have not the origin of the information, in a french text or record nee could be "née", let say born for a daughter or "né" for a son.
Not always but it is frequent, when a mother registers a child born prior to the marriage, the child is declared in the record under the name of the mother and later, if the mother get married, the child is recognised by both father and mother for legitimation purpose. Birth records are not always rectified with this legitimation and it is useful to keep in mind the initial name of the child.
It is a possible explaination.

Christian

Ce message a été modifié par cfacon - 10/05/2012 à 14:00.

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christian et Stephane,

Thank you Christian for your intervention and since you write so well in English I don't need to write my answer in both english and french.
First, I have to specify that Mae is a first name ( un prénom ) for girls.
Second, the problem with research in the US is that married women are often not under their maiden name after marriage.
So when Bonnie said that Arthur married Ida Mae CARLIER, Ida Mae was her first and middle names and CARLIER was most likely her married name. Bonnie could confirm this

Hi Bonnie,
I agree with Christian and Stephane that we found a line of ancestors that I checked with records, but the fact remains that the name PLANTE that you gave us at the beginning bring some doubts that we are on the right track with the right ancestors. PLANTE and THOMPSON are not even phonetically close.

Something remains coherent between what you gave us in your first message:
1) George Emile Carlier - (1839-1852)
2) Dr. Arthur Emile Carlier (1841-1880)
3) Emily Louise Carlier - (1843-1874)

and the births records we found:
15 May 1840 birth of Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER
15 April 1843 birth of William Emile George CARLIER -
09 June 1846 birth of Emilie Louise CARLIER,
except that the mother is THOMPSON and not PLANTE
I just found that William Emile George died in 1871 in Dunkerque at age 28 (not 13)
I did not find any PLANTE in the 1873-1882 death tables in Dunkerque. I did not find any THOMPSON either.

Bonnie wrote that Henri Emile CARLIER died in Belgium, and that is what I found in the French transcription of his death record in Anvers ( Antwerp ) says.

Like Christian, I think that you should return to Arthur and find his parents through his death and marriage records in the US. You might even have to start with the records about your grandfather if you don't have them, to make sure you are on the right track and with the right information.

One way to do research free, is to go to the Family History Center (Mormon) of your area. You don't have to be a Mormon. They are very helpful no matter your religious affiliation. I go to mine once a week to do my French research.
Right now I have to go but I will get back to you if I find something or if I think of something else.
Cheers
Amicalement à tous,
Christiane

[bhowell]

Just wanted to clarify that Ida Mae's maiden name is CLOSE. Sorry about how I wrote it in the first message. (Close).

I am going over info that I had searched for in the past from familysearch.org. © 2012 IRI A service provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. May be the same as you mentioned.

I'm trying to see if I can find more.

Thank you everyone.
Bonnie

[bhowell]

I found this info for a Louise MESLET or PLANTE'.

"Belgium, Antwerp Police I...igration Index, 1840-1930
DGS Film Number
4331460
4331461
4331462
4331463
4331464
4331465

Meslet (Vve), nee' Plante', Louise #38373"

Not sure what this means... Vve? Police?

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie
I think these might be microfilm numbers of an index of immigration to Belgium. Maybe in Belgiume it's the police who makes immigration indexes.

MESLET (Vve) née PLANTE would mean MESLET (widow) born PLANTE
which would mean a person born PLANTE who married MESLET. But, how does that relate to the CARLIER?

I did a bit of research on the mormon website Familysearch (Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter Day Saints)
With a “CARLIER” search I get too many answers in different States.

You say Georges Emile CARLIER was your grandfather. Did you know your grandparents when you were young or did you learn their names from the papers of your uncle?
Do you know the first name and maiden name of your grandmother? Do you know when ( approximatively) did you grandparents got married and where?. I might have found something but I want to know if I am on the right track

Cheers
Christiane

[bhowell]

You say Georges Emile CARLIER was your grandfather. Did you know your grandparents when you were young or did you learn their names from the papers of your uncle?

I knew my grandmother. My grandfather died 7-4-1941, before I was born in 1947.

Do you know the first name and maiden name of your grandmother?

Anna (Annie) Elizabeth SPINK CARLIER. Her dad was W.A. PARSH OR PARSCH.

Do you know when ( approximatively) did you grandparents got married and where?.

They were married May 2, 1900 in Dayton, Ohio.

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christiane, bonjour à tous,

I did the exercice with the informations collected on LDS site. Starting from Arthur, I have the following tree:

Arthur CARLIER born Pennsylvania
married with
Ida CLARE or CLOSE depending of the source on LDS site

I found only one child for Arthur and Ida

George E. CARLIER born 6 october 1875 Erie, Pennsylvania, dead 4 july 1941 Dayton, Montgomery, Ohio, buried 7 july 1941 Woodland
married on 2 may 1900 Montgomery Co, Ohio with
Annie E. SPINK born either 1882 Elyra, Illinois or october 1881 Ohio (father: W.A. SPINK, mother Eliza PARSH)

I found five children for this family:

1) Newell CARLIER born 16 march 1901 Dayton, Montgomery
2) Ida May CARLIER born 11 june 1906 Mad River Twp, Montgomery, Ohio
3) Ruth Muriel CARLIER born 21 november 1907 Mad River Twp, Montgomery, Ohio, dead 19 january 1988 Freno, California
4) Charles Wilbur CARLIER born around 1912, married on (confidential) Lehigh Co, Pennsylvania with Ellen D. LOBST (father: Raymond LOBST, mother: Serena KERCHNER)
5) Albert Laverne CARLIER born around (confidential), married on (confidential) Lehigh Co, Pennsylvania with Evelyn Guth (?) SCHARADIN (father: Chas. (Charles?) SCHARADIN, mother: Sallie GUTH). To be confirmed since I am in trouble with married name and maiden name.

Remark: According to the rules on this forum we are not allowed to disclose date lower than 100 years from now. I put (confidential) despite the date(s) is (are) available on LDS site.

With the reference to your last message, we speak about the same people and you probably know much more about the five children. Now the target is to learn a little bit more about Arthur CARLIER and Ida CLARE or CLOSE to study the opportunity to connect those people and at least Arthur to what we found in Dunkirk. Thanks to Stephane and Christiane we have obtained a possible track but we need to be defitinely confident with the solution.

For your information, Charles Everitt WHITMORE, son-in-law of Henri Emile CARLIER dead at Antwerp, married Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 septembre 1871 Dunkirk. At this time he was Vice Consul for UK and based at Dunkirk. Both Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON were present at the ceremony.

Christian

[bhowell]

There were 8 children. Added to this list is Verona CARLIER WALLACE (102 in June and lives in Arizona), Gladys CARLIER MATHIAS (lived in Allentown, PA but now deceased. She is supposed to be in Woman's Who's Who.) and my father George Emile CARLIER (1905-1978).

For your information, Charles Everitt WHITMORE, son-in-law of Henri Emile CARLIER dead at Antwerp, married Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 septembre 1871 Dunkirk. At this time he was Vice Consul for UK and based at Dunkirk. Both Henri Emile CARLIER and Louise Catherine THOMPSON were present at the ceremony.

I would be so thrilled to know for sure about this marriage. My uncle said there were no records of Emilie other than parents, birth and death.


Thank you so much Christian. It almost seems like a generation is missing since there is a space of around 20 years. I appreciate all your info. I have seen the Ida CLARE also, but it really is CLOSE.



Bonnie

[dlarchet]

Hi Bonnie,
Thank you to use the button "rep.rapide" for your answers.
cordially

[bhowell]

Oh thank you. Will I ever get this... *;* So sorry!

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour Bonnie et François,
I made also a search on Familysearch website yesterday, and like you, I found the marriage George E. CARLIER x Annie SPINK.
George CARLIER is 24, born in Pennsylvania? Annie SPINK is 18 born in Illinois?
Here is an image of their marriage licence which establishes the names of their parents Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida Mae CLOSE and W. A. SPINK x Eliza PARSH.
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30326
This licence is signed May 2, 1900

From there, I feel we need some records to establish a link with Henri Emile CARLIER (1799-1875) x THOMPSON whose records I found in Dunkerque. Otherwise we might be on the wrong track.

The website of Familysearch has a lot of information that has been submitted by people and has not been verified, so we need records to check what we find. Fortunately, they now put images of records on their website so we need to keep looking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Christiane

[bhowell]

Okay. I read over my records from my uncle again and have some personal things I can share. Also, I've wondered if there could be any records from the University of Paris from the 1850's that might show Arthur's parents. He studied there and after getting his doctorate degree, he went back and became a surgeon. I haven't had any luck but it could be that one of you may know something about those records.

According to a daily journal Arthur kept, he came to USA in late 1860s and practiced medicine from Harrisburg, PA to Erie, PA and across northern Ohio in the late 1860s and 1870s. Also, he made several trips back to Belgium and one was to attend his mother's funeral, Louise Renee (PLANTE') CARLIER who died in 1878.

Two years later 1880, while on a consult in Toledo, he had a massive stroke and died. He was 39 years old.

Ida was married previously to BURDICK and they had a daughter Lettie Mae BURDICK. Arthur adopted her later. Then they had 1) Infant son 1874 stillborn. 2) George Emile CARLIER (my grandfather) and Maude Louise CARLIER MONK (1877-1924). Then my uncle stated that Ida Mae CLOSE died in 1882 at age of 33.

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie, Christiane, bonjour à tous,

Please find hereafter my translation (????) of the marriage record between Charles Everitt WHITMORE and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER on 26 september 1871 Dunkirk.

AD59 DUNKERQUE > 5 Mi 27 R 088 P 942 & 943/1011

In 1871, 26 of September at 11:00 am, in front of Gustave Pierre Adolphe LEMAIRE, vice mayor, Register Officer in the city of Dunkirk, Nord Department, appeared publicly in the Town House Charles Everitt WHITMORE, Vice Consul of Her Britannic Majesty, born in Kennington, Surrey county (England) on 17 of June 1840, as it results from the birth certificate annexed to the present, living at Dunkirk, adult son of Thomas Greenslade WHITMORE and Anne Marie ARCHER, deceased at London as declared by the contractor who produced a certificate delivered to him by the Consul of Her Britannic Majesty, dated yesterday Dunkirk, stating that according to the English laws all English citizens being more than 21 years old is adult and may contract marriage without consent of its parents, this certificate which will remain annexed to the present relates the aptitude of Sieur Charles Everitt WHITMORE to contract marriage in France and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER, without occupation, born in Dunkirk on 18 of June 1846 as it results from the birth certificate part of our registry book for this year under number 359, here living with her father and mother, adult daughter of Henri Emile CARLIER, maritime pilot activity receiver, and Louise Catherine THOMPSON, both here present and consenting which required us to proceed with the marriage ceremony planned between them and whose publications have been made front main door of the Dunkirk Town House on Sundays 10 and 17 of this month at noon, no opposition to the said marriage having been presented to us, granting their request, after reading of all records here above mentioned and Chapter VI under Napoleon Code about rights and obligations of both spouses, on our inquiry, future husband and wife have told us that it was not made a marriage contract, we requested the groom and the bride if they wish to be caught for husband and wife, each one of them having answered separately and affirmatively, we declare on behalf of the Law that Charles Everitt WHITMORE and Emilie Louisa Caroline CARLIER are linked by the marriage of what we drew up act in presence of Jules Benjamin CARLIER, wholesale merchant, 60 years old, uncle with the female contractor, living at Bordeaux, of Emile Marie CARLIER, ingénieur des Ponts et Chaussées (Roads & Bridges Engineer), Chevalier de la Légion d’Honneur, 42 years old, cousin with the female contractor, living at Dunkirk, of Edouard Kerrich (?) HUSSEY, wholesale merchant, 26 years old, living at London and Vincent Philp YGLESIAS, proprietary, 26 years old, living also at London and have the contracting parties, female contractor parents and witnesses signed with us the record after reading.

Remark: I have some doubt with one of the witnesses: Edouard Kerrich (?) HUSSEY. I don't know whether Kerrich (if properly written) is a second name or part of the last name.

Christian

[cdubrulle]

Okay. I read over my records from my uncle again and have some personal things I can share.
According to a daily journal Arthur kept, he came to USA in late 1860s and practiced medicine from Harrisburg, PA to Erie, PA and across northern Ohio in the late 1860s and 1870s. Also, he made several trips back to Belgium and one was to attend his mother's funeral, Louise Renee (PLANTE') CARLIER who died in 1878.

Hi Bonnie, François, et bonjour à tous.
I continued my search on the familysearch website of the mormons today. No matter what search criteria I use, I cannot find the marriage of CARLIER x CLOSE that must have been late 1860s or early 1870s ( before the birth of George Emile in 1875) It has probably not been indexed yet.
However, I found Maud CARLIER born in Pennsylvania in 1877, died in 1924, daughter of Arthur E CARLIER and Ida CLOSE, so she is a sister of George Emile. Bonnie is confirming that information in her last post.

THANK YOU so much Bonnie for going through your notes and what you have about your family.
Given the last information that you give us: Arthur kept a journal where he mentions going to the funeral of his mother Louise Renée PLANTE in Belgium. Now, we know the name PLANTE comes from her son, and his mother was not a THOMPSON.
I think that we can conclude that the couple Henri Emile CARLIER x Louise Catherine THOMPSON (married 1839 in England) are not the parents of Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida CLOSE and Emilie Louise CARLIER x WHITMORE. We were on a wrong track.

Bonnie, do you know where in Belgium Louise Renée PLANTE died in 1878? Does Arthur mentions in his journal the name of the town where the funeral took place? That might be a way to track the family in Belgium.

Have a good day
Christiane

[bhowell]

Christiane,

The only mention of a city was Dunkirk when saying that (George Emile 1839-1852) and Emily Louise (1843-1874) had been buried there. And that Arthur was buried in Toledo, Ohio.

There was also a note saying that Louise Renee was very well educated.

Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
It's too bad you don't have more details.
I looked up the 10-year death index of Dunkerque (Dunkirk) for 1873-1882 and there is no death in the name of PLANTE and no CARLIER Emily Louise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Why would they be buried in Dunkerque if they did not die in that town?

I also checked the 1843-1852 death index of Dunkerque and there is no Georges Emile CARLIER either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So, I am really puzzled!
We will have to keep looking...
Christiane

[bhowell]

I have to say... I'm disappointed, but mostly I'm grateful for all the work you and the others have done. Sometimes knowing where you're not connected helps to find where you are. I'll never stop searching! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/merci.png)

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
I understand your disappointment, and I am sorry we could not get on the right track to find your CARLIER ancestors.
I could try to get some help at the Family History Center ( mormon center) where I do some French research, but I won't have the time to go next week . They have a limited subscription to Ancestry.com that is very helpful to find census records, immigration records, and others.
Maybe there are a few more things we can find about Arthur Emile CARLIER and his wife Ida Mae CLOSE, as well as his parents Henri Emile CARLIER and Renée Louise PLANTE that would tell us where they came from in Belgium.
In the meanwhile, look if you have any other bits of information that might give us some clue to locate them
Cheers,
Christiane
P.S. I noticed your father and my father (1905-1977) were contemporaries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[† lcaestecker]

Bonsoir Bonnie et Christiane

Il serait bien de remettre soit par Sosa, soit par génération la liste des ascendants de Bonnie, sur dunkerque, juste avec les dates ou approximatives.
Pour recentrer les recherches, Mon américain date de la 4ème !!!

Laurent

[cdubrulle]

Il serait bien de remettre soit par Sosa, soit par génération la liste des ascendants de Bonnie, sur dunkerque, juste avec les dates ou approximatives.

Bonjour Laurent,
Le problème est que l'ascendance et les actes que nous avons trouvé à Dunkerque ne semblent pas être les ancêtres de Bonnie. Nous avons finalement établi, grace aux notes qu'elle possède, que son arrière-arrière grandpère était marié (en Belgique) avec Louise Renée PLANTE et non pas en Grande Bretagne avec Louise Catherine THOMPSON comme le pensait Stephane dans message #2.

En conséquence l'ascendance suivante est valide, mais il ne semble pas que ce soit celle de Bonnie.
Generation 1
Jean Baptiste Louis CARLIER
Marie Jacqueline Elene LEFERE
Generation 2
Louis Joseph CARLIER né 19/12/1764 à Bergues ( voir image)
x 02/01/1792 Dunkerque
Marie Jeanne Elisabeth FOCKEDEY née 25/12/1768 à Dunkerque
Generation 3
Henri Emile CARLIER né 26/12/1799 Dunkerque (voir image) + 01/09/1875 Anvers, Belgique
x 3 aout 1839 Chelsea, Middelsex, Angleterre retranscrit le 9 oct. 1839 à Dunkerque
Louise Catherine THOMPSON, fille de William George
(image dans la galerie)
Génération 4
15/05/1840 Henri Emile Arthur CARLIER
15/04/1843 William Emile George CARLIER + 1871 Dunkerque
19/06/1846 Emilie Louise CARLIER

Il y a similarité dans les prénoms et dates de naissance des 3 enfants du couple CARLIER x THOMPSON, ce qui est troublant, mais d'aprés les notes que Bonnie possède, Louise Renée PLANTE meurt en 1878 et son fils Arthur Emile qui a émigré aux U.S. vers 1865-70, écrit dans son journal qu'il est retourné en Belgique pour ses funérailles. On ne peut pas douter qu'il connait le nom de sa mère!
Bien sur, si quelqu'un trouve des éléments qui disprouvent PLANTE, il est le bienvenu.
Cordialement,
Christiane

[† lcaestecker]

Re Bonnie et Christiane

J'ai regardé dans la base belge, je n'ai pas trouvé le nom PLANTE.
C'est vrai qu'il y a beaucoup de similitude dans les prénoms.
Est ce que cela ne serait pas un Nom avec son titre.
Ex: THOMPSON Sieur de PLANTE ou l'inverse, l'angleterre est toujours sous la royauté ???
autre exemple à Dunkerque, on trouve TAVERNE de COUDECASTEELE quelque fois nommé Sieur TAVERNE et d'autres le Sieur de COUDECASTEELE et c'est la même personne.

Laurent

[bhowell]

I'm wondering if there is a list of cemeteries in Dunkirk as well as list of who is buried there? Any suggestions about that? Seems all were buried there except Arthur. Does anyone know if it was customary for one to die in Belgium and be buried in Dunkirk? I realize they are close, but just wondering...

Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

I'm wondering if there is a list of cemeteries in Dunkirk as well as list of who is buried there? Any suggestions about that? Seems all were buried there except Arthur. Does anyone know if it was customary for one to die in Belgium and be buried in Dunkirk? I realize they are close, but just wondering...
Bonnie

Bonjour à tous,
Traduction du message de Bonnie pour tous les colistiers:
Je me demande si il existe une liste de cimetieres de Dunkerque et une liste de ceux qui y sont enterrés. Est-ce que quelqu'un a une idée. Il semblerait qu'ils étaient tous enterrés là, except Arthur. Est-ce que quelqu'un sait si c'était une habitude pour quelqu'un mort en Belgique d'être enterré à Dunkerque? Je réalise que c'est proche, et je me pose la question.

Ci dessous je demande à Bonnie si elle est sure de l'orthographe "Dunkirk" parce que certains noms en Belgique peuvent ressembler Je lui demande si elle a le journal de Arthur où il écrit dans ses notes être retourné en Belgique, pour vérifier l'orthographe

To Bonnie:
I translated above your last message because people of the region might know and I don't.
Are you sure of the spelling "Dunkirk" because in Belgium some town names can be similar. Do you have the journal of Arthur where he writes in his notes going back to Belgium, to check the spelling of the town ?
Have a good Sunday and Happy Mother's Day.
Christiane

[bhowell]

Hi Christiane, Happy Mother's Day to you and all mothers on this forum!

I am sure of the spelling of Dunkirk. And I would give my right arm to see Arthur's diary! According to my uncle's notes all of the family info was given to his sister Ruth and after her death, to her daughter, Debby. My Aunt has been trying to find Debby to see if she has any of that information.

There is something I read in my uncle's notes that I don't understand.
He said our family was traced back to the Walloon section, yet never mentions a specific town. Walloon: "It is in this southern region of Belgium where the ancestry of our CARLIER family has been traced."

"A former Belgium Ambassador to the US (late 1950s) stated in a letter to me (my uncle) that the name 'CARLIER' has existed for centuries in the Tournai, Belgium and Douai, France areas."

He said the 'CARLIERS' belonged to the aristocracy of France. I don't really know what that means.

Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

I am sure of the spelling of Dunkirk.
He said our family was traced back to the Walloon section, yet never mentions a specific town. Walloon: "It is in this southern region of Belgium where the ancestry of our CARLIER family has been traced."

Hi Bonnie,
Tournai is indeed in the province of Hainaut, in the Wallon part of Belgium.
Yesterday I posted a message in a forum of Hainaut where I am a member. I asked if somebody could find a marriage CARLIER X PLANTE in 1838. So far, no answer.
It's a little bit like throwing a bottle in the ocean, but I thought it was worth trying.
Christiane

A toutes les colistières du forum
Bonnie leur souhaite une bonne Fête des Mères parce que ici aux US c'est aujour'dhui

[bhowell]

Thank you Christiane... hope you hear something back!

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie, bonjour à tous,

Unfortunately, for the time being nothing more about the subject.

You asked a question about Dunkirk cemetery. As far as I know there was only one cemetery at that time for Dunkirk. Regarding a possible list of people buried in the cemetery you have to consider the following:
In France, before 1793 the registers were in charge of the church and they were not speaking about birth but baptism and burial instead of death, unchanged for marriage. Generally, they used to bury people in the cemetery of the church and sometimes inside the church.
Then the Sépultures (Burial) register gives the list you are looking for.

From 1793, registers are in charge of the State officers located in the City House. It is the reason why such registers are established for Birth, Marriage and Death without the idea of religious event.
By experience I know that cemeteries have their own registers to keep tracability of people buried there : who, when, where in the cemetery.

Regarding the other question related to people died in a place and buried in another place. It is not really frequent, except if you died where you were not living (for instance accident). It can be also the case when transfered to another place to be buried with your ancestors our family if space is available in the burial vault.

Back to your search, according to whar you explained, Arthur died and was buried at Toledo in 1880. Have you the corresponding death record, it might contain some interesting informations such as birth place. Have you tried to find the marriage record CARLIER x CLOSE ?

Have a nice day
Christian

[cdubrulle]

Yesterday I posted a message in a forum of Hainaut where I am a member. I asked if somebody could find a marriage CARLIER X PLANTE in 1838. So far, no answer.
It's a little bit like throwing a bottle in the ocean, but I thought it was worth trying.

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christian,
So far there is 28 readings of my message on the Hainaut website, and no answer.

What Christian writes about death and burial records is accurate. From my own experience in Lille, cemeteries have registers of burials, but you have to go there to consult them.
Christian is right in advising you to find the death record of Arthur in Toledo and the marriage record CARLIER x CLOSE in Ohio. They both might contain useful information about Arthur's birth and something about his parents.
Have a nice day
Christiane

[bhowell]

Thank you both Christian and Christiane. I have been searching for anything I can find on Arthur... keep hitting dead ends. I'll keep trying. Thank you for the info Christian regarding the cemeteries.

And thank you Christiane for checking in the Hainaut website. Maybe someone will reply soon...
Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
A quick note to let you know that my message in the Hainaut forum has only 32 readings so far, and still no answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I don't have too much hope to get something, but I will keep checking their website.

Next week I will try to get help at the Mormon Family History center to find out about the CARLIER x CLOSE marriage and Arthur's death by using their subscription to Ancestry.com.
Christiane

[bhowell]

Christiane,
Thank you so much. I have been obsessed with finding this info. I'm searching online every day! ha! I'm still confused about whether or not Arthur was born in Belgium or France. Thank you for your concern and help.
Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

I'm still confused about whether or not Arthur was born in Belgium or France.

Hi Bonnie,
Arthur marriage and death's records might give us a clue about his birth, but to find them is no sure thing.
If we find them, whether these records show that he was born in France or born in Belgium, it is not enough, we need the name of the town to be able to do a search, so it's a long shot but we just have to try.

Because of the lack of a precise town, my message in the Hainaut forum is not likely to get any answer. We can only hope for luck.
Next week, I will let you know if I found something with the help at the Mormon Family History Center
Have a good evening (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Christiane

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
In genealogy, we have to start with a generation for which we have solid information, (parents or grandparents) and find records that establish relationships with the next one.
My message # 35 contained the link to the image of the marriage record of your grandparents Georges Emile CARLIER x Anna SPINK on March 4, 1900 in Montgomery County, OH, with the names of their parents. That's a solid source of information and yesterday at the Family History Center we tried to find more information about the couple and their parents. Unfortunately, there is very little about Arthur.

So here is what we found:
Source: Ohio Deaths records 1908-1953
Georges Emile CARLIER
b: 6 October 1875 Erie, PA
d: July 4, 1941 Dayton, OH.
Occupation: Sheet Metal worker.
Age at death: 65y 8m 28d
Father: Arthur CARLIER - birth place: PA
Mother: Ida CLOSE - birth place: OH
Spouse: Anna E. CARLIER ( we know her maiden name was SPINK)

We found a WW1 Draft Registration for Georges Emile CARLIER
b: 6 October 1875
It's very difficult to read the image but it seems to say that he was a clerk
He has brown hair and brown eyes and there is the mention that he had a bad right eye.

Source: 1880 U.S. Census in Ohio
We find the family CARLIER living in Sullivan, Ashland County, OH
The household includes:
Head of the household: Newel CLOSE and Sarah CLOSE (parents of Ida)
Ida .C. CARLIER, 29, - born in 1851 in Ohio - does light work
Georges N.E. CARLIER 4 years old, born in PA (your grandfather)
Maud CARLIER 3 years old, born in PA
No Arthur CARLIER living there. I assume he died before the census which was done in June 1880.

We also find another Arthur CARLIER in Henrietta, Lorain County, Ohio
born in 1835 in France, 45 years old
"Married" but no spouse named
Works as a servant in a cheese factory and as a servant in the household of Dudley Cole, 41 years old
Dudley Cole is married and has 3 young children. No one else in the household
It seems unlikely that a doctor would work as a servant.

We already know that George get married in 1900 with Annie (or Anna) SPINK
Now here is his sister Maud CARLIER
[u]Source: Ohio Marriage records 1789-1994[/u]
Frank T. MONKS x Maud CARLIER married 3 October 1896 in Wood County, Ohio
Parents are not named.
Here is a link to the image of the record:
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30531

Source: Ohio Deaths records 1908-1953
Maud MONKS born 20 February 1877 in Pennsylvania
died 25 April 1924 in Lima, Allen County, Ohio in the City hospital
Father: Arthur CARLIER born in France
Mother: Ida CLOSE born in Ohio
Spouse Frank T. MONKS

While searching the CARLIER name, by chance, I found:
Source: California Death Index 1940-1997 and SS index
Ruth Muriel FINK
born 21 November 1907 Ohio died 19 janvier 1988 in Fresno, CA
father: CARLIER Mother SPINK
Last residence: Coarsegold, Madera County, CA.
She must be one of your aunts

Source: Ohio Deaths records 1908-1953
Ida May CARLIER
born 1906 in Dayton, OH, died 4 November 1906 in Mad River, Montgomery, Ohio
Father: George CARLIER Mother: Anna SPINK

Source: Ohio Obituary Index
We found the obituary of one CARLIER
Arthur CARLIER, 40 years old, died February 25, 1881 in Sandusky, Ohio
It is not 1880 in Toledo, and there is no mention of his wife's name to be sure it is the same Arthur CARLIER. With so little info. it could be someone else.
We did not find any marriage record and death records of Arthur CARLIER and his wife Ida CLOSE, even using other spellings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

In the records we found about his children, George and Maud, there is no reference to Arthur being a doctor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
We also searched for a marriage CARLIER x PLANTE in Belgium. No results. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
It does not mean it did not happen, it can mean that records have not yet been indexed and put on genealogy websites. CARLIER is a very common name in France, so what we have is not enough to persue a search in France. Arthur's journal seems to be the key to finding more about him and his parents.

The volunteers at the Family History Center made a good suggestion. If Arthur CARLIER was a doctor, he must have had some assets such as land, a house, his medical equipment, maybe horses, etc... So after his death there would have been a probate in Ohio. If he died in Toledo, the probate would have been recorded in Lucas County. They tell me that probates can contain quite a bit of information about the family of the deceased, and are worth looking into for genealogy purposes. Ohio probates are on microfilms. By going to the Family History Center of your area (there are many such centers in North Carolina) the volunteers would be able to figure out on which microfilm to find it. Renting a microfilm for 2 months is $ 8.00. Spending a few hours looking at it in a Family History Center seems worth the time and expense.

Of course, if I find something else I will post it. Good read.
Christiane

[bhowell]

Christine,
I can't thank you enough for all you've done. You're amazing.

I did find two directory listings:

1) CARLIERE ARTHUR DR, physician and surgeon, office and h 18th bet Ash Lane and Wayne (I think Erie PA - an advertisement on that page was in Erie, PA. but no heading to the page copied.)

2) US City Directories 148839987 - Carlier Arthur, physician, 26 Dwight. H. do. Boston Directory

May not be the same as my Arthur.

Anyway... I will try and find the Family History Center and rent the microfilm. I'll let you know if I find a connection.

There was a human-interest story that my uncle included that I thought I would share with you. When Arthur married Ida Mae she had been married before to a Burdick. They had a child named Lettie Mae Burdick Carlier. (Arthur adopted her.) Then later they had two children of their own. George and Maude. When Lettie Mae knew she didn't have long to live, she asked her half sister, Maude if she would marry Frank Monks (her husband) and raise her two children. And Maude did just that. Married Frank and raised their two children. I think that was an extraordinary selfless thing for her to do.

Again, thank you for all your help! Hope you have a good day!
Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

I did find two directory listings:

1) CARLIERE ARTHUR DR, physician and surgeon, office and h 18th bet Ash Lane and Wayne (I think Erie PA - an advertisement on that page was in Erie, PA. but no heading to the page copied.)

2) US City Directories 148839987 - Carlier Arthur, physician, 26 Dwight. H. do. Boston Directory

May not be the same as my Arthur.

Hi Bonnie
The story of Maude is very telling.
Do you have the dates of the two directory listings you found? As you say, it might not be your Arthur. There were many Carlier in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and all the border States.
As you might have noticed in my long message, eveytime we found something about George CARLIER it was associated with the name SPINK or CLOSE, so we knew it was the right CARLIER. On the other hand, we found no record (marriage or death) about Arthur CARLIER himself, associated with CLOSE. We found him only as a "father, born in PA" in one, and "father, born in France" in another.

Family stories have a tendency to change as they are transmitted from generation to generation and details get lost, so it would be so useful if you could get Arthur's journal.

To find the Family History Center ( FHC) of your area, the easiert way is to go to this page:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
and fill out Country, your state, your County, and click "Search"
If you fill out only "North Carolina" you will get the addresses of the 43 FHC in N. Carolina. If you add your County you can choose the FHC closest to your home. Mine is 20 miles away and I go there once a week.
When you order a microfilm, it takes about 2-3 weeks to arrive from Salt Lake City to the FHC

At the centers, the volunteers are friendly, they don't ask any question about your religion and don't try to convert you... They are there to help you with your genealogy search. The volunteer who suggested to search for the probate is a professionnal genealogist, and I think her idea is a good one. If you do find the probate, ask to make a photocopy or print of everything you find.
I hope you do find it. Depending on what you find, the volunteers might suggest something else.

I wish you good luck, and let us know what you find (or don't find)'
Christiane

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour à tous,
Ces derniers jours j’ai posté en anglais ce que j’avais trouvé pour Bonnie. Je viens poster ici une traduction résumée de l’ information. Excusez-moi pour le délai.
N’ayant pas d’information basée sur des actes ou documents, j’ai jugé utile de repartir de son grand-père et de vérifier si possible l’ information aux US menant à son arrière granpère Arthur Emile CARLIER, en espérant trouver quelque chose sur son origine en France ou en Belgique.

TRADUCTION de l’ Information trouvée (traduction non littérale)
Mon message #35 contenait le marriage du grandpère de Bonnie et un lien à l’ image:
Georges Emile CARLIER x Anna SPINK , 4 mars 1900 dans le Comté de Montgomery, Ohio.
Ce document indique que Georges Emile CARLIER est fils de Arthur CARLIER et Ida CLOSE, rien de plus sur les parents.
Je rappelle que d’aprés Bonnie, Arthur CARLIER était docteur et chirurgien, il est arrivé aux U.S. fin des années 1860, a épousé Ida Mae CLOSE ( lieu et date?) et il est mort en 1880 à Toledo, Ohio. Bonnie nous dit que Arthur écrivait chaque jour ce qu’il faisait dans un journal, mais elle ne possède pas ce journal, et semble avoir peu d’information sur le contenu et pas de dates précises.

Au centre mormon de ma région où je fais ma recherche dans les microfilms du Nord/Pas-de-calais, je peux avoir accès gratuit à certains sites généalogiques américains auquel le centre est abonné, et cette semaine j’ai fait multiples recherches pour trouver des relevés d’actes aux noms de CARLIER et CLOSE

Source: Décès en Ohio 1908-1953
- George Emile CARLIER né 6 /10/1875 in Erie, Pennsylvania mort le 4/07/1941 à Dayton, Ohio
Père: Arthur CARLIER né en Pennsylvania
Mère: Ida CLOSE , née en Ohio
Épouse: Anna CARLIER
A noter: aux US, après marriage, les épouses sont inscrites sous le nom de leur époux- nous savons que son nom de jeune fille est Anna SPINK)

- Maud MONKS, née 20/02/1877 in Pennsylvania, morte 25/04/1924 à Lima, Comté d’Allen, Ohiol
Père: Arthur CARLIER né en France
Mère: Ida CLOSE, née en Ohio
Époux: Frank T. MONKS

A noter que dans l’un, Arthur est né en Pennsylvania, dans l’autre, il est né en France! Il n’est jamais nommé Dr. CARLIER

Enregistrement pour l’armée durant 1914-18
Georges Emile CARLIER né 6/10/1875, clercq, a un mauvais oeil droit.

Recensemsent fédéral 1880 en Ohio
Une famille CARLIER habite Sullivan, Comté de Ashland, Ohio
Newel CLOSE , chef de famille
Sarah CLOSE, sa femme
Ida C. CARLIER, 29 ans, leur fille, née 1851 en Ohio, (pas de mention qu'elle est épouse ou veuve de Arthur CARLIER)
Georges N.E. CARLIER 4 ans, né en Pennsylvania
Maud CARLIER, 3 ans, née en Pennsylvania
Pas de Arthur CARLIER, le mari de Ida et père des enfants.
D’aprés Bonnie, il serait mort en 1880, donc sans doute avant le recensement qui a eu lieu en juin.

Dans le même recensement de 1880 en Ohio
un Arthur CARLIER, habite à Henrietta, Comté de Lorain, Ohio, avec la famille COLE
Dudley COLE est chef de famille, 41 ans, il est fermier
Dudley COLE a une épouse et 3 jeunes enfants.
Nommé en dernier: Arthur CARLIER, né en 1835 en France, 45 ans. Pas d’épouse
Il est servant dans une fabrique de fromage et servant dans la famille de Dudley COLE
Il semble peu probable qu’un docteur travaille comme servant dans une famille pour gagner de l’ argent.

A noter: Dans les recensements aux US, si la personne est née hors des Etats-Unis, seul le pays d’origine est nommé, pas la ville.

Je n’ai pas trouvé le décès de Arthur CARLIER.
Cependant dans : Index de notices nécrologiques de Ohio, j’ai trouvé
Arthur CARLIER, 40 ans, mort 25/02/1881 à Sandusky, Ohio
Ce n’est pas 1880 à Toledo comme Bonnie nous a dit, et il n’y a pas mention de l’ épouse qui confirmerait que c’est le même Arthur CARLIER

Je n’ai pas non plus trouvé trace de Arthur CARLIER dans le recensement fédéral de 1870
Je n’ai trouvé aucune trace du marriage Arthur CARLIER x Ida CLOSE et aucune trace du décès de Ida CLOSE, morte en 1882 à 33 ans, d’aprés Bonnie. Dans aucun relevé il est fait mention qu’il est docteur. Il n’est jamais nommé Dr. Arthur CARLIER.

J’ai aussi cherché le marriage CARLIER x PLANTE vers 1838 (parents de Arthur) et décès de Louise PLANTE en 1878 en Belgique, d’aprés Bonnie, mais je n’ai trouvé aucune réponse dans les sites.

Une généalogiste professionnelle au centre mormon a fait la suggestion de chercher l’enregistrement du testament de Arthur CLOSE. Si Arthur était docteur et chirurgien, il avait surement des possessions: une maison, du terrain, ses instruments, et peut être un ou deux chevaux pour se déplacer chez ses malades. Les testaments ont été microfilmés, et j’ai suggéré à Bonnie de faire cette recherche. Je lui ai donné le URL pour trouver le centre mormon proche de son domicile où elle peut louer le microfilm.
( cet URL est valide aussi pour les centres en France) Un testament peut donner beaucoup d’information sur le décédé et ses héritiers.

Il me semble un peu étrange que Arthur ayant écrit son journal, la date précise et lieu de son marriage ne soit pas connu. Bonnie a des notes sur ce que lui a passé son oncle et des fragments d’ information récoltés sur internet, mais ne semble pas avoir d’actes.
J’ai écrit:
“Ne pas trouver des relevés ne veut pas dire que l’information est mauvaise, il est possible que certains relevés et indexes ne soient pas encore faits ou postés sur internet. Le nom CARLIER est commun en France et ce que nous avons n’est pas suffisant pour poursuivre des recherches en France. Le journal de Arthur semble la clé pour trouver les origines de Arthur et de ses parents.”
et dans le message suivant: “Les histoires de famille ont tendance à changer lorsqu’elles sont transmises de génération en génération et les détails se perdent, aussi serait –il utile d’obtenir le journal de Arthur."

Dans son dernier message, Bonnie dit avoir trouvé 2 Arthur CARLIER, docteurs, dans des annuaires en Ohio et Boston, Massachussets, mais elle ne donne pas les dates. Interessant mais pas une preuve que ce soit le sien.

Ouf! C’est fini pour aujourd’ hui!
Amicalement,
Christiane

[† lcaestecker]

Bonjour Christiane et Bonnie

On attend des indices pour vous aider !

Laurent

Ce message a été modifié par lcaestecker - 02/06/2012 à 10:36.

[bhowell]

Hi Bonnie
The story of Maude is very telling.
Do you have the dates of the two directory listings you found? As you say, it might not be your Arthur. There were many Carlier in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and all the border States.

The directory listing for Erie, PA is 1875.

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour Christiane et Bonnie
On attend des indices pour vous aider !
Laurent

Bonjour Laurent,
Moi aussi j'attend des indices...

I've wondered if there could be any records from the University of Paris from the 1850's that might show Arthur's parents. He studied there and after getting his doctorate degree, he went back and became a surgeon. I haven't had any luck but it could be that one of you may know something about those records.

According to a daily journal Arthur kept, he came to USA in late 1860s and practiced medicine from Harrisburg, PA to Erie, PA and across northern Ohio in the late 1860s and 1870s. Also, he made several trips back to Belgium and one was to attend his mother's funeral, Louise Renee (PLANTE') CARLIER who died in 1878.

Two years later 1880, while on a consult in Toledo, he had a massive stroke and died. He was 39 years old.

Hi bonnie,
I noticed I had not answered your question. When it comes to researching the archives of the School of Medecine in Paris, we can't do it.
Since it is in Paris, this is not the subject of this forum which deals only with research in the Nord and Pas-de-Calais departments.

This morning I went to the meeting of the genealogy association of my area and the lecture was about comparing the genealogist's work to detective work which is quite true. This made me think about your problem and after re-reading your messages the following questions came to me:

- How long ago did your uncle made his research and write his notes?
- Do you have his original notes? or do you have only some information extracted from his notes?
- Does everything in your uncle's notes come from Arthur's journal, or did your uncle do some research himself?
- Did your uncle document the sources of his notes, such as "I found this and that in document so and so", or in a microfilm? or in such archive?
- Where did he find that Arthur studied medecine in Paris?
- What made him say that Arthur immigrated in the late 60s. Do you have any immigration record? Do you know if he came after the end of the Civil War? He doesn't seem to be in the 1870 Federal Census
- Do you have the precise date and place of Arthur and Ida's marriage or a copy of the record?
- Is the date of their marriage in Arthur's journal?

I am concerned because nothing you gave us about Arthur and his parents seems to have precise dates, just years, and we are not finding anything to document it.
- Do you, or did your uncle get any birth, marriage, or death records or any other official documents about Arthur Emile CARLIER?
- Or are these years just estimates?

You told us about Arthur CARLIER that:
- his father Henri Emile CARLIER was born in 1817 in Belgium, and died in 1875,
- his mother Louise Renée PLANTE was born in 1821 in Belgium, and died in 1878 in Belgium
- they got married in 1838 in Belgium
Do you have the precise dates or are those estimated?

Sorry to make you work... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Have a good Sunday,
Christiane

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour à tous/toutes
Voici la TRADUCTION du message # 63

Je me suis apercue que je n’avais pas répondu à votre question. Au sujet de rechercher les archives de l’ Ecole de Médecine de Paris, nous ne pouvons pas le faire. Comme c’est à Paris, ce n’est pas le propos de ce forum qui s’occupe seulement de faire de la recherche dans le Nord/Pas-de-Calais.

Ce matin je suis allée à la réunion de l’ Association Généalogique de ma région et il y avait une conference sur la similitude entre les methodes de travail du généalogiste et celui du detective, ce qui est vrai. Ceci m’a fait penser à votre problème et aux questions suivantes:

- Quand votre oncle a t’il fait ses recherches et écrit ses notes?
- Avez-vous ses notes écrites ou seulement de l’ information extraite de ses notes?
- Est-ce que toutes les notes de votre oncle viennent du journal de Arthur ou est-ce que votre oncle a fait des recherches lui-même?
- Est-ce que votre oncle a documenté les sources de ses notes, tel que “J’ai trouvé ceci et cela dans tel document, microfilm, ou telle archive?
- Où a t’il trouvé que Arthur a fait ses études de médecine à Paris?
- Qu’est-ce qui lui fait dire que Arthur a immigré dans les années 1865-70? Avez-vous un document d’ immigration? Savez-vous si il est arrivé après la fin de la Guerre Civile (1861-1865 pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas) Il ne semble pas être dans le Recensement fédéral de 1870.
- Avez-vous date précise et lieu du marriage de Arthur et Ida ou une copie de l’acte?
- Est-ce que la date de leur marriage se trouve dans le journal de Arthur?

Je suis ennuyée parce que rien de ce que vous nous avez fourni semble avoir une date précise, seulement une année et nous ne trouvons rien pour les documenter.
- Avez-vous, ou votre oncle, des actes de naissance, marriage, déces ou autre document official concernant Arthur Emile CARLIER?
- Ou est-ce que ce sont des dates estimées?
Vous nous avez dit au sujet de Arthur CARLIER que:
-Son père, Henri Emile Carlier, est né en 1817 en Belgique, mort en 1875
-Sa mere, Louise Renée PLANTE, est née en 1821 en Belgique, morte en 1878 en Belgique
-Ils se sont mariés en 1838 en Belgique.
Avez-vous les dates précises ou est-ce que ce sont des dates estimées?

Désolée de vous faire travailler.
Bon dimanche. Christiane

[bhowell]

Ha Christine... not work! It really is like detective work and I think that’s why I like doing it so much… and of course because I want to know. My aunt’s 102nd birthday is Friday and I was hoping to share some good news with her by then… but some day…

My Uncle's report (for lack of a better word) is 37 pages long and was written in July 1981. Part of it is my grandmother's side that he researched. My uncle died in 1985. He made copies for all of his brothers and sisters and their families. He also stated that the sources were from Arthur's journal, his mother's book that she had written in 1946 (which covered many events in her life from 1880's to 1946) and also letters her grandfather had received from Hull England. In conclusion, he said "These things plus family conversations which revealed facts of the past. Individual family records since 1900 were obtained from the families concerned."

On page two he wrote "Perhaps our ancestry could have been traced a few centuries further back if we had made some acquaintances earlier in life with some of the Carliers who lived in Belgium or France. We will have to accept the present information of our ancestry and perhaps, some day, someone will be able to trace the Carlier ancestry back to 1500 or even further back."

What made him say that Arthur immigrated in the late 60s. Do you have any immigration record? Do you know if he came after the end of the Civil War? He doesn't seem to be in the 1870 Federal Census
I think most info about Arthur was taken from his journal... such as when he immigrated to the US. I haven't found any immigration record for Arthur. I've only found one trip made by an Arthur Carlier and that was in 1876. I found an immigration paper for Emile Carlier, Merchant, Dunkerque July 1851. Could be Henry or Arthur? And a marriage register for Henry Emile Carlier from Kensington dated for July, Aug and Sept 1839. No bride's name.

- Do you have the precise date and place of Arthur and Ida's marriage or a copy of the record?
I don’t have copy of record… just know from my uncle’s notes. He wrote: “Arthur married Ida Mae Close (Burdick) in 1873. Ida Mae was born in 1849 in the Wellington-Sullivan, Ohio area. Died in 1882. Buried in the ‘Close Cemetery’ near New London, OH. There are only a few records of her life available.“ He also states that her father Newel Close was a minister of the Methodist Church. She had a sister named Theresa who lived in Tiffin, OH. And Dr. Arthur E Carlier and his wife lived in Mansfield, OH. Children:
Lettie Mae Born 1870 Died 1896 Buried New London, OH
Infant son Born 1874 stillborn Buried New London, OH
George Emile Born 1875 Died 1941 Buried Dayton, OH
Maude Louise Born 1877 Died 1924 Buried Belle Centre, OH”
- Is the date of their marriage in Arthur's journal? Don't know which source had this info.

Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
Thank you for providing some answers to my questions and a few more details. Any detail can be important, in particular dates and places.
I gather from what you wrote that your father got a copy of your uncle's report, and that you have it.. Have you been able to trace who has Arthur's journal? It would be so important to be able to get a photocopy of it.

I found an immigration paper for Emile Carlier, Merchant, Dunkerque July 1851. Could be Henry or Arthur? And a marriage register for Henry Emile Carlier from Kensington dated for July, Aug and Sept 1839. No bride's name.

Are you talking about something you found on the internet?

You say your uncle wrote “Arthur married Ida Mae Close (Burdick) in 1873. Does he say where? It would be so important to know in order to obtain a copy of that marriage record.

Tomorrow, I am going to try to look for immigration records or passenger lists.
Have you found a Family History Center in your area to search for a probate of Arthur CARLIER?

I got one message on the forum of Hainaut. In order to help, the person asks where the couple CARLIER x PLANTE died and what makes me say that their marriage was in Hainaut. Of course, I don't have the answers since you don't know which towns. The CARLIER name is very common and there are numerous CARLIER all over Belgium so I think it will be difficult to find something without being able to narrow the search down to the town.
Cheers,
Christiane

[cfacon]

Bonjour à toutes et à tous

Voici la TRADUCTION du message #65

Ah Christiane…pas du travail. C’est véritablement comme un travail de détective et je pense que c’est pourquoi j’aime tant le faire… et naturellement parce que je souhaite savoir. Vendredi prochain c’est le 102ème anniversaire de ma tante et j’espérais pouvoir partager quelques bonnes nouvelles avec elle à cette occasion…. mais un jour….

Le rapport de mon Oncle (faute d’un meilleur mot) fait 37 pages et a été rédigé en juillet 1981. Une partie de celui-ci est relatif à la branche de ma grand-mère sur laquelle il a fait des recherches. Mon oncle est décédé en 1985. Il a fait des copies pour tous ses frères et sœurs et leurs familles. Il a également indiqué que ses sources provenaient du journal d’Arthur, du livre sur sa mère qu’il a écrit en 1946 (qui couvrait de nombreux événements entre les années 1880 et 1946) et aussi des lettres de sa grand-mère qu’elle avait reçues de Hull Angleterre. En conclusion, il disait : « Ces éléments ainsi que des conversations en famille ont révélé des faits du passé ». Des actes de membres de la famille ont été récupérés à partir de 1900 pour les familles en question.

A la page 2 il a écrit : « Peut-être que notre ascendance aurait pu être établie sur quelques siècles si nous avions fait la connaissance plus tôt dans notre existence avec quelques uns des CARLIERs qui vivaient en Belgique ou en France. Nous aurons à accepter les présentes informations de notre ascendance et peut-être, un jour, quelqu’un sera en mesure d’établir l’ascendance CARLIER jusqu’en 1500 et même plus loin ».

Qu’est-ce qui lui fait dire qu’Arthur a immigré dans les années 1865-70? Avez-vous un document d’immigration? Savez-vous s’il est arrivé après la fin de la Guerre Civile? Il ne semble pas être dans le Recensement fédéral de 1870.
Je pense que l’essentiel des informations a été prélevé dans son journal…notamment quand il a émigré vers les US. Je n’ai pas trouvé le certificat d’immigration d’Arthur. J’ai seulement trouvé une traversée faite par un Arthur CARLIER et c’était en 1876. J’ai trouvé un certificat d’immigration pour Emile CARLIER, Marchand, Dunkerque Juillet 1851. Se pourrait-il que ce soit Henry ou Arthur ? Et un enregistrement de mariage de Henry Emile CARLIER de Kensington sur la période Juillet, Août, Septembre 1839. Sans nom de l’épouse.

Avez-vous la date précise et le lieu du mariage d’Arthur et Ida ou une copie de l’acte?
Je ne possède pas la copie de l’acte….ce que je sais provient des notes de mon oncle. Il a écrit : « Arthur s’est marié avec Ida Mae CLOSE (BURDICK) en 1873. Ida est née en 1849 dans le secteur Wellington-Sullivan, Ohio. Décédée en 1882, inhumée dans le « CLOSE Cemetery » près de New London, Ohio. Il y a juste quelques éléments de sa vie disponibles ». Il a également noté que son père Newel CLOSE était un pasteur de l’Eglise Méthodiste. Elle avait une sœur prénommée Theresa qui habitait Tiffin, Ohio. Et Dr. Arthur E. CARLIER et son épouse vivait à Mansfield, Ohio. Enfants :
- Lettie Mae née en 1870, décédée en 1896, enterrée à New London, Ohio
- Fils né sans vie en 1874, enterré à New London, Ohio
- George Emile né en 1875, décédé en 1941, enterré à Dayton, Ohio
- Maude Louise née en 1877, décédée en 1924, enterrée à Belle Centre, Ohio

Est-ce que la date de leur mariage se trouve dans le journal d’Arthur?
Je ne connais pas l’origine de cette information.

Bonnie

Amicalement
Christian

Remarque: Lettie Mae CLOSE est indiquée comme fille d'Arthur Emile CARLIER, il s'agit en réalité d'un enfant issu du premier mariage de Ida Mae avec Samuel BURDICK. Cette fille a été élevée par Arthur Emile CARLIER après le décès dudit BURDICK. Lettie Mae a été mariée avec Frank T MONKS et comme expliqué dans le fil de la discussion, Lettie Mae est décédée très tôt et avait deux enfants. Ces enfants ont été élevés par Maude Louise, soeur utérine, après qu'elle se soit mariée avec le même Frank T MONKS.

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christiane, bonjour à tous,

-1- To avoid any misunderstanding with the "Uncle", please Bonnie give us the first name of the uncle together with first and last name of his wife since ancestry was studied on this side.
-2- Through the discussions it was mentioned several times by Bonnie that Arthur migrated to US, made several trips to Europe and came to Europe (Antwerp) to attend his mother funeral. We do have a possibility to trace these various trips and I agree with Christiane with the idea to study immigration lists ans passengers lists.

On ISTG website, I found the following:
6 Arthur Carlier 24 M Gent England New York 2nd Cabin
Columns represent: given name and surname, occupation, the country to which they severally belong, the country of which they intend to become inhabitants, and the part of the ship occupied during the voyage.
He was passenger on Atalanta vessel crossing from London, England and Le Havre, France to New York 25 March 1867
It might be the same Arthur as found by Bonnie but the trip was in 1867 instead of 1876. Possibly an error between the armchair and the computer.

On Ancestry.com website, I also found an Arthur CARLIER without details if we have not subscribed to the site. Anyway the place of arrival is given for Pennsylvania.

-3- Christiane gave us some informations collected from LDS Site, in particuler about various census.
In 1880, Ida Mae and children are based at Sullivan, Ashland County, OH, living with Ida parents. Marital status for Ida is "Married". In case Arthur died before census, marital status would be "Widowed".
Same year, Christiane found another census for Henrietta, Lorain, Ohio where we have an Arthur CARLIER living in a cheese factory. His marital status is also "married".
During the discussion, Bonnie explained that Arthur used to work, time to time, in a cheese factory to win money. In case we are able to find more details, I think we have to push forward our investigations. I tried to study the the family of the cheese factory COLE & Co for finding a possible link with CARLIER and/or CLOSE families. Without success at this time.

-4- I agree with Christiane with the idea to get the full copy of the journal written by Arthur. If I have well understood, this document has been given by Arthur to the family and today Debby CARLIER (FINK ?), daughter of Ruth Meril CARLIER, has this journal. For sure copy of this document is to be kept by Bonnie.

-5- Regarding the marriage register for Henry Emile Carlier from Kensington dated for July, Aug and Sept 1839. I bet it is the marriage Henri Emile CARLIER x Louise Catherine THOMPSON August 2nd 1839 Upper Chelsea. We have already discussed about this event.

Good investigations
Christian

[bhowell]

I called the local Family History Center and it is in a church that is reorganizing. The lady told me someone would get back to me this week. So, I'm hoping that will be very soon.

My uncle said Arthur's family (survivors) lived in Mansfield, OH when he died. And then on to say he was buried in Toledo, OH.

Is there a way for me to send you some of the pages of my uncle's report? I did have a hard copy of it years ago, but can't find mine. My niece has a copy that was my sister's when she died. So she scanned it and sent it to me in a PDF file. I can't copy and paste from that file. So it would be all (37 pages) or tid bits like I've been giving you. I don't want to overload you or the message board though.

Thank you Christiane!
Bonnie

[bhowell]

Christian,
Thank you for putting information from these searches together. It gets a little hectic sometimes. I have a family tree program that I use at home. Also have one on ancestry.com. I am not a member but made it while I had the two weeks free with them. I've also created spreadsheets and making a notebook with documents I've downloaded.

I think Arthur CARLIER traveled and lived with other families at times. That would explain the census with him at the COLE household and Ida and children at her parents. One thing new was that you mentioned Cole and Co? I haven't seen that. So he lived in their household and worked at their factory? Is that what you are saying? That would definitely make the connection with the cheese factory.

My uncle's name is Charles Wilbur CARLIER (1911-1985). (We called him Uncle Bill). He was married two times. First wife was Ellen Dora IOBST in 1934 and second wife was Myrtle PUPHREY in 1949. In 1981 they resided in North Fort Myers, FL.

Regarding the trips Arthur made back and forth... I only know of the one you mentioned 1867 (could be his first trip to US) and the one in 1878 when he went to his mother's funeral. My uncle stated that he made several trips back to Belgium.. that information must have come from Arthur's journal.

I am trying to locate the journal... I would LOVE to see it. Apparently Debbie has been distant from the family for quite a while. I personally have never met her. I just sent a letter to my aunt yesterday asking if she has found Debbie's address yet. I hope she has.

Again, thank you!
Bonnie

[cfacon]

Bonnie,

Don't be disturbed with COLE & Co, it's just a brand-new company I created this morning for the cheese factory. Just forget it.

Christian

[bhowell]

okay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cdubrulle]

Hi everyone, Hi Bonnie
Today I went back to the Family History Center where I can search different websites not available without a subscription, I am not searching only the LDS site, but also Ancestry.com, and their links to other websites that are not free to the public.

Immigration Index
I found Arthur CARLIER, 1867, Pennsylvania - No age. No place of origin - No mention that he is a doctor.
No way to know if it is the Arthur we are looking for, but it could be.
The source for this information is page 19 of the Erie Society for Genealogical Research, published in 1869,
The originial source for this entry is "Passenger and Immigration Lists Index 1500s-1900s " by William P. FILBY
I had consulted that book some years ago in a genealogical library for my own research, but unfortunately our FHC does not have the book.

ITSG ( Immigrant Ships Transcriber Guild)
I have seen the arrival of Arthur CARLIER on March 25, 1867 in New York on the SS Atalanta, traveling in a cabin, a sign that he was wealthy. Unfortunately, his occupation is not listed as "Doctor" but as "Gent" for gentleman, It it is consistant with the Immigration Index, but we still don’t know if it is the man we are looking for.

Census of 1860
I found Idelia ( Ida) CLOSE, 9 years old, with her parents M.I. CLOSE 39 years and Sarah CLOSE 35 years as well as the other children Jane 15, Theresa 13, and Rosa 5.
We know that the father's name is Newell CLOSE ( donc pas M.) but I have seen some original photos of the census pages and they are so badly written sometimes, that the persons who are indexing them have a hard time to figure out the names or initials. The age of the parents in this 1860 census correspond to their ages (59 and 55) when I found them in the 1880 census.

Marriage BURDICK x CLOSE
22 February 1866 marriage of Samuel C. BURDICK and Idelia CLOSE
in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. The father is N. J CLOSE and performs the marriage as a "Minister of the Gospel".
I think that Bonnie mentionned he was a Methodist Minister

I did not find any marriage CARLIER x CLOSE or CARLIER x BURDICK ( in case Ida was under her married name from her first marriage) either in Ohio or Pennsylvania, between 1865 and 1875. I chose that large margin of dates to be sure not to miss it. I am frustrated about not finding their marriage, because it can be the lead to his parents and their origin, but the index of a particular County might not be available on the net.

Erie, Pennsylvania, 1875 City Directory
I saw in the listing: Arthur CARLIER Dr. Physician and Surgeon office, with an address
This is what Bonnie was citing in a message, but we don't know if it is the right Arthur CARLIER?

I have a question for Bonnie: Since Arthur came from France or Belgium, was his journal written in English or in French?
That’s it for today
Christiane
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TRADUCTION
Bonjour à tous/toutes,
Je suis retournée au Centre Mormon où je peux faire de la rechercher sur diff'erents sites interent non accessible sans abonnement payant. Je ne cherche pas seulement sur le site LDS, mais aussi Ancestry.com et j’explore leurs liens à d'autres sites qui ne sont pas gratuits au public

Index d' immigration
J'ai trouvé Arthur CARLIER, 1867, Pennsylvania. Pas d’âge. Pas de lieu d'origine. Pas de mention qu'il est docteur
Donc pas certain que ce soit celui qu'on cherche, mais c'est possible
La source pour cette information est p. 19 d'une publication de 1869 par la Societé de Recherche Généalogique de Erie, Pennsylvannia. La source de cette publication est un livre de W. FILBY "Index des listes de Passagers et Immigration 1500-1900. J'avais consulté ce livre il y a plusieurs années dans une bibliothèque généalogique pour ma propre recherche , mais mon centre n'a pas ce livre.

ITSG ( Guilde de transcriptions des vaisseaux d'immigrants)
C'est un site qui transcrit pour chaque vaisseau, la liste des passagers arrivant aux US
Comme Christian, j'ai vu l'arrivée de Arthur CARLIER à New York le 25 mars 1867 sur le vaisseau SS Atalanta
Arthur CARLIER, 24 ans, venant d'Angleterre avec l'intention d'habiter New York - Voyage en cabine, un signe qu'il avait des moyens- la plupart des passagers voyageant dans des conditions très inférieures et sans comfort.
Son occupation ou métier n’est pas listée comme docteur, mais seulement “gent” qui voudrait dire “Gentleman” La date d’arrivée est consistante avec l’ Index d’immigration de Pennsylvania, mais nous ne savons toujours pas si c’est celui qu’on cherche.

Recensement de 1860
On y trouve Idelia (Ida) CLOSE, 9 ans, avec ses parents M.I CLOSE 39 ans et Sarah CLOSE 35 ans, et aussi leurs autres enfants Jane 15 ans, Theresa 13 ans, and Rosa 5ans.
Nous savons que le père de Ida est Newell CLOSE,( donc pas M.) mais j’ai vu des photos des pages de recensement et elles sont parfois si mal écrites, que la personne faisant l’index a du mal d’interpreter les noms ou les initiales. L’âge des parents dans ce recensement de 1860 correspond avec l’age qu’ils ont ( 59 et 55) dans le recensement de 1880 (que je cite dans message #60)

Mariage BURDICK x CLOSE
22 Février 1866 mariage de Samuel C. BURDICK x Idelia CLOSE
dans le Comté de Cuyahoga en Ohio. Le père est N. J CLOSE et c’est lui qui les marie, étant “Pasteur de l’Evangile”. Bonnie a mentionné ( message # 65) qu’il ‘était pasteur Méthodiste

Je n’ai pas trouvé de mariage CARLIER x CLOSE or CARLIER x BURDICK ( au cas ou elle se serait remariée sous son nom de premier mariage) , que ce soit en Ohio, ou en Pennsylvania entre 1865 et 1875, J’ai choisi un large fourchette de date pour ne rien manquer. C’est frustrant parce que leur mariage pourrait nous livrer les parents et leur origine. Mais il y a des Comtés qui n’ont sans doute pas encore été indexés ou postés sur le net

Erie, Pennsylvania, Annuaire de 1875
Comme le citait Bonnie, dans la liste alphabétique de cet annuaire on y trouve en effet : Arthur CARLIER Dr., docteur et chirurgien, et l’adresse à Erie. c'est ce que citait Bonnie, mais nous ne savons pas si c’est le bon Arthur.

J’ai une question pour Bonnie. Puisque Arthur était venu de France ou de Belgique, est-ce que son journal était écrit en anglais ou en français?
Voila pour aujourd’ hui. La recherche continue....
Christiane

[bhowell]

Wow Christiane, you've been busy... I don't know if the journal was in French or English. My guess is English because I don't know if my uncle knew French and I think he would have mentioned somewhere if he had to translate it. I know... I'm no help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The thoughts that keep running through my head are 1) I think Henry and Louise must have had some money to be able to send Arthur to school at the University of Paris. 2) I think Arthur was well off until he got to America. I don't know the trend back then, but a doctor traveling around several states practicing medicine yet needing to work in a cheese factory to help with medical supplies seems odd to me. 3) And why would he leave his family to travel around so much? Lots of questions... And "Who Do You Think You Are" on TV makes it all look so easy! Ha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I have Googled all kinds of thoughts just to see if I could run across something, lots of interesting things, but none that could help ...

Thank you Christiane! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cdubrulle]

Wow Christiane, you've been busy... I don't know if the journal was in French or English. My guess is English because I don't know if my uncle knew French and I think he would have mentioned somewhere if he had to translate it. I know... I'm no help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The thoughts that keep running through my head are 1) I think Henry and Louise must have had some money to be able to send Arthur to school at the University of Paris. 2) I think Arthur was well off until he got to America. I don't know the trend back then, but a doctor traveling around several states practicing medicine yet needing to work in a cheese factory to help with medical supplies seems odd to me. 3) And why would he leave his family to travel around so much? Lots of questions... And "Who Do You Think You Are" on TV makes it all look so easy! Ha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Hi Bonnie,
OK, so Arthur journal’s was probably in English. Besides getting some answers, it would be interesting to see how good is english was.
You are right! A doctor needing to work as a servant in a farmer’s household and as a servant in a cheese factory ( according to the 1880 census he was doing both) does not sound right, and why would he live in another household?
The family lived in Ohio you said, but the doctor in the city directory is in Erie, Pennsylvania. There might be 2 Arthur CARLIER one in OH and one in PA.
A lot of questions... That’s why Arthur’s journal is so important. It would bring lots of answers.

At least the 1860 census and the marriage BURDICK x CLOSE in 1866 that I found, confirm what you knew. The immigration in 1867 could be Arthur but we have no proof so far.

I answered the Belgium forum saying I was trying to help you in checking what you have because you don’t speak French.
Christiane

[cdubrulle]

You asked a question about Dunkirk cemetery. As far as I know there was only one cemetery at that time for Dunkirk.
By experience I know that cemeteries have their own registers to keep track of people buried there : who, when, where in the cemetery.

Regarding the other question related to people died in a place and buried in another place. It is not really frequent, except if you died where you were not living (for instance accident). It can be also the case when transfered to another place to be buried with your ancestors our family if space is available in the burial vault.
Christian

Bonjour à tous et toutes,
En relisant les messages de cette file, l’information fournie par Bonnie et l’information que nous avons trouvée ou pas trouvée, il semble difficile pour le moment de vérifier la naissance de Arthur CARLIER en Belgique et son mariage aux US

D’aprés le journal de Arthur, ses parents sont:
Henri Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) né et décédé en Belgique, enterré à Dunkerque
x 1738 Belgique
avec Louise Renée PLANTE (1821-1878) née et décédée en Belgique, enterré à Dunkerque

Il me semble que la principale énigme, et la chose qui pourrait être vérifiée sur ce forum est la suivante: Sont-ils enterrés à Dunkerque ainsi que 2 de leurs enfants, comme l’écrit leur fils Arthur dans son journal? Si oui, est-ce que le cimetière de Dunkerque a encore de l’information sur ce couple dans leurs dossiers? noms, prénoms, dates, etc..
Si quelqu’un sur le forum habite Dunkerque, serait-il possible de faire cette recherche? Ce serait une aide fantastique pour confirmer ou au contraire nous remettre sur une autre piste.
Merci d’avance pour Bonnie
Christiane

TRANSLATION for BONNIE
After re-reading the messages on this subject, the information from Bonnie and the information we found or did not find, it seems difficult for the moment to verify the birth of Arthur CARLIER in Belgium and his marriage in the US

According to Arthur’s journal, his parents are:
Henri Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) born and deceased in Belgium, buried in Dunkirk
x 1738 Belgium
with Louise Renée PLANTE (1821-1878) born and deceased in Belgium, buried in Dunkirk

It seems that the main enigma, and the thing that could be verified on this forum is the following: Were they buried in Dunkirk’ cemetery with 2 of their children, as their son Arthur wrote in his journal? If so, does the Dunkirk’s cemetery has information on this couple still in their file? Names, first names, dates, etc...
If a member of the forum lives in Dunkirk, would it be possible to do that research? It would be a fantastic help, either to confirm or to lead us on another track
Thank you in advance for Bonnie,
Christiane

[cverhaeghe]

Bonjour Christiane, bonjour Bonnie, bonjour à toutes et tous,

Je me suis rendu cet après-midi au cimetière principale de Dunkerque afin d'essayer de vous aider (je réside à 1500 m de celui-ci).
Le service administratif du cimetière détient des registres depuis 1835 (avec forcément des lacunes et des oublis ....).
Nous n'avons pas trouvé trace de l'inhumation éventuelle du couple CARLIER-PLANTE, après avoir parcouru les registres de 1875 à 1880.

Cependant :
1) Il faut savoir que les sépultures ne sont connues que par les noms de leurs propriétaires.
2) Que tous les rapatriements de corps pour inhumation, ne sont pas forcément enregistrés à cette époque m'a-t-on dit !!
3) Il faudrait consulter les autres registres après 1880, au cas ou les corps auraient été rapatriés après cette année.
4) Il y a d'autres cimetières sur le dunkerquois, comme ceux de Malo-les-bains, Rosendael ou encore Petite-Synthe ....

Il faudrait continuer les (nos) recherches en Belgique pour trouver les lieux exacts de naissance et de décès de ce couple.

Cordialement,

Ce message a été modifié par cverhaeghe - 07/06/2012 à 15:15.

[cfacon]

Bonjour Christiane, Hi Bonnie, bonjour à tous,

Message # 77 TRANSLATION

This afternoon I went to the Dunkirk main cemetery with the purpose to try and help you (I am living abt 1 mile away)
The Administrative Dept holds registers from 1835 (for sure with missing parts and omissions)
We have been through 1875 to 1880 years and unfortunately no mention of the burial either of Arthur CARTIER or Louise PLANTE.

However:
1) We have to know that burial place is known under the name of the owner,
2) I have been told that at the considered period, died people transfers for burial were not all registered,
3) It would be necessary to check registers after 1880 in case the transfers were made after this year,
4) There are other cemeteries nearby Dunkirk, such as Malo-les-Bains, Rosendael and even Petite-Synthe...

It would be good to continue your/our searches in Belgium to get more precise dates and places of birth and dead for this family.


Christian

[cfacon]

Bonnie

I tried to send to you a private message through this forum but it was rejected probably because you have not yet reach a certain amount of messages. Can you try on your side to give me a mail address.
To send a private message, click on my login name for instance on the left of one of my messages, then Envoyer un message / Send a message. Website Administrators don't enjoy to have mail address included in the discussion.

Christian

[cdubrulle]

Message # 77 TRANSLATION
This afternoon I went to the Dunkirk main cemetery with the purpose to try and help you (I am living abt 1 mile away)
The Administrative Dept holds registers from 1835 (for sure with missing parts and omissions)
We have been through 1875 to 1880 years and unfortunately no mention of the burial either of Arthur CARTIER or Louise PLANTE.

It would be good to continue your/our searches in Belgium to get more precise dates and places of birth and dead for this family.
Christian

Bonjour Claude, et bonjour à tous,
Merci d’avoir fait cette visite au cimetière. Dommage que vous n’avez rien trouvé.
Quand à faire de la recherche en Belgique, le problême est que Bonnie n’a aucune information sur la ville ou la région de naissances et décès du couple CARLIER x PLANTE. Elle n'a rien de plus que ce que je citais dans mon message #76.
J’ai mis un message pour elle sur AGHB, le forum du Hainaut Belge, mais jusqu’à present, on m’a seulement demandé de préciser....
Bonne soirée
Christiane

TRANLATION of above:
Thank you for having gone to the Dunkirk cemetery. To bad you did not find anything.
As to do some research in Belgium, the problem is that Bonnie has no information about the town or the region of birth and death of the couple CARLIER x PLANTE. Nothing more than what I cited in my message #76
I posted a message for her on AGHB, the Belgium Hainaut forum, but so far, I have had only one message requesting more precise information
Christiane

Bonjour Christian,
Thank you for the translation of Claude’s message
I write in english since you understand and I won’t have to translate for Bonnie.
Bonnie won’t be able to send you a Private Message either for the same reason that she has not reached the 50 messages on the forum.
If it is not too private and if this is OK with you, you can send me a PM. I will transfer it to Bonnie. It is not advisable to post an email address on the forum because it can be picked up by anybody to send her spam.
Have a good evening,
Christiane

[ocoulon]

salut

je vous expose simplement mon avis ,

je regarde de loin ce sujet , à vrai dire il est trés difficile de s'y retrouver !!!

il faudrait refaire un point de départ

cette dame recherche quoi ,,, ??? et surtout à partir de quoi ,,,, ??? suite à un échange verbal ou écrit sans confirmation ???

pour s'en sortitr je pense qu'il faut repartir de zero !!!!

de plus elle devrait passer par le traducteur google , pour limiter les traductions

je pense que du monde veut l'aider , mais c'est devenu impossible !

olivier

Ce message a été modifié par ocoulon - 07/06/2012 à 21:55.

[† lcaestecker]

Salut Olivier, Christiane , Bonnie et les autres

Les Canaries t'on laissé quelques marques de bronzages !!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Comme tu as pu le constater, J'attend l'indice, le lieu, une date
j'ai fouillé la base belge °x+. et Française .
Pas de PLANTE !!!
J'ai des CARLIER, sans accroches, on ne peut les rattacher !!
Je pense qu'il faut repartir sur les bases des actes " papa - maman " " papa - maman " .
Ou alors il y a une lettre dans le nom PLANTE Qui cloche !!!!!!!!
Exemple : Dans la Garde orpheline le Nom " BALLOY" se transforme en " BALOVARD " dans les mariages
Sur 3 ans j'ai 5 exemples , des " JACQUES " en "GIRARDEAU "
Enfin dans 15 jours c'est mon tours, 3 semaines de vacances, 3 semines de boulot et re 3 semaines de vacances.
elle est pas belle la vie !!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Bonne soirée à Tous

Laurent

[cdubrulle]

salut
je vous expose simplement mon avis ,
je regarde de loin ce sujet , à vrai dire il est trés difficile de s'y retrouver !!!
il faudrait refaire un point de départ
cette dame recherche quoi ,,, ??? et surtout à partir de quoi ,,,, ??? suite à un échange verbal ou écrit sans confirmation ???
pour s'en sortitr je pense qu'il faut repartir de zero !!!!
de plus elle devrait passer par le traducteur google , pour limiter les traductions
je pense que du monde veut l'aider , mais c'est devenu impossible !
olivier

Bonjour Olivier,
Merci pour votre avis.
- Le message # 1 de cette file donne l'essentiel de l'information que Bonnie possède, et qu'elle cherche à vérifier pour remonter plus loin. Elle n'a pas d'information plus précise concernant dates et lieux en Belgique. Si il est difficile de vous y retrouver, c'est sans doute parce que vous avez suivi le sujet de loin, comme vous dites, sinon vous auriez vu que nous étions d'abord partis sur une mauvaise piste ( message #2 à #38 + message # 44 qui fait le point de la mauvaise ascendance) et que nous avons repris la bonne piste en cours de route.

- Depuis plusieurs semaines, je passe plusieurs heures chaque jour à faire de la recherche sur ce sujet pour Bonnie, à écrire ensuite des messages sur le forum pour communiquer ce que je trouve, puis leurs traductions en anglais. Il n'est pas question de refaire un point de départ.

- Repartir à zéro, c'est ce que j'ai fait le 11 mai dans mon message # 35 en postant le mariage des grandparents de Bonnie en 1900 avec lien à l'image, et cet acte de mariage confirme le nom de leurs parents. Puis à partir de mon message #57 je donne ce qu'on trouve sur la famille CARLIER en cherchant les index et autres sources publiés aux Etats-Unis. Pour le moment, je n'ai pas trouvé l'acte de mariage de Arthur CARLIER en 1873 en Ohio, ou autre acte qui confirmerait sa naissance en 1841 en Belgique et le nom de ses parents.

- Le traducteur Google? Non merci. Je l'ai utilisé, il est très imparfait ou approximatif et il faut souvent corriger ou compléter la traduction. En généalogie on ne peut pas se permettre de l'approximatif et des erreurs d'interprétation du texte

A Laurent, bonjour,
Merci pour vos recherches. Je sens votre frustration, et croyez-moi, j'en ai aussi. Bonnie essaie de trouver l'adresse de la nièce qui possède maintenant le journal de Arthur. Ce journal est le document original sur lequel est basé l'ascendance faite par l'oncle de Bonnie. L'oncle peut en effet avoir mal interprété le nom PLANTE et les noms de lieux et dates précises figurent peut être dans ce journal. Repartir sur les bases des actes " papa - maman ", il me semble que c'est ce que j'ai fait avec l'acte de mariage en 1900 des grandparents de Bonnie. De mon coté, la recherche continue et je mettrai sur le forum ce que je trouve.

A Claude, bonjour,
Bonnie est surprise et très reconnaissante pour votre visite au cimetière de Dunkerque et vous dit un grand grand merci. C'est dommage que vous n'avez rien trouvé. En fait, mourir en Belgique et être enterré à Dunkerque me semble un peu curieux. Est-ce que c'était fréquent?

Cordialement
Christiane

[bhowell]

I want to thank Claude for going to the cemetery. That was such a wonderful thing for you to do. Thank you so much.

Bonnie

[cverhaeghe]

Bonjour à toutes et tous,

Le point de départ a bien été défini je pense.

Concernant les dépouilles rapatriées (éventuellement) au cimetière de Dunkerque, je veux préciser que ces rapatriements ne se justifient et ne se comprennent que si l'un (ou les deux) des époux est natif de Dunkerque.
C'est le cas de CARLIER Henri Emile, décédé à Anvers le 1/9/1875 et rapatrié à Dunkerque en 1877.
Par la suite, son épouse (PLANTE ou THOMSON ??, that is the question) a peut être aussi été rapatriée à Dunkerque.

Si le couple CARLIER-PLANTE est natif de Belgique, pourquoi les aurait-on rapatriés et inhumés au cimetière de Dunkerque.

Il me faudrait pouvoir, moi-même, éplucher les registres du cimetière de Dunkerque à partir de 1880 et au-delà.

Cordialement,

Ce message a été modifié par cverhaeghe - 08/06/2012 à 13:05.

[cverhaeghe]

RE-bonjour à toutes et tous,

Un ami belge, membre du VVF de Coxyde/Oostduinkerke, a fait également des recherches sur le mariage éventuel CARLIER-PLANTE en Belgique en 1838, mais n'a rien trouvé à ce jour.

Ne désespérons pas. Bonnie devrait "fouiller" d'avantage dans les écrits en sa possession.

Cordialement,

Ce message a été modifié par cverhaeghe - 08/06/2012 à 13:06.

[aftassin]

Bonjour à tous,

J'ai suivi "de loin" ce sujet, et j'ai vu le message de Christiane sur un autre forum, mais je n'ai malheureusement pas d'autres informations. Pourtant, quelque chose m'a intriguée dans cette discussion, une toute petite apostrophe :

If I understand, you want to know how I had PLANTE' in the first request. I have a collection of info from my Uncle who tried to track our ancestors as far back as possible. He could not find anything beyond Henri and Louise. In his records were Henry Emile CARLIER and Louise Renee PLANTE'. I did find a Louise PLANTE' nee MESLET in records in USA but didn't think that was it. (And I do not know what "nee" means.)

Je crois que Bonnie essaie d'écrire PLANTÉ avec son clavier américain, ce qui n'est déjà pas facile en majuscules avec un clavier français.
Il ne faut donc pas écarter les PLANTÉ et les PLANTEZ, et même les PLENTEZ.

Il y a aussi cette Louise PLANTE' nee MESLET : aux Etats-Unis, ce pourrait être une Mademoiselle MESLET, devenue Madame PLANTÉ à son mariage. En France et en Belgique, c'est plutôt la fille d'une demoiselle MESLET, née Louise MESLET, reconnue par Monsieur PLANTÉ au mariage de sa mère et donc appelée ensuite Louise PLANTÉ.

Je suis désolée de n'avoir rien apporté de constructif... mais je sèche !

Ou alors il y a une lettre dans le nom PLANTE Qui cloche !!!!!!!!

C'est peut-être ça...

Cordialement,
Annie-Françoise

[ocoulon]

salut christiane

dans ce cas , marques les deux ou trois générations qui sont correctes
avec les dates qui sont bonnes à ce jour ! c'est simple plutot que de relire les xx messages !

[cdubrulle]

j'ai vu le message de Christiane sur un autre forum, mais je n'ai malheureusement pas d'autres informations. Pourtant, quelque chose m'a intriguée dans cette discussion, une toute petite apostrophe :

If I understand, you want to know how I had PLANTE' in the first request. I have a collection of info from my Uncle who tried to track our ancestors as far back as possible. He could not find anything beyond Henri and Louise. In his records were Henry Emile CARLIER and Louise Renee PLANTE'. I did find a Louise PLANTE' nee MESLET in records in USA but didn't think that was it.
Annie-Françoise

Bonjour Claude, Annie-Françoise,
Merci pour vos recherches.
Je répond aux derniers messages ensemble.

A Claude,
En ce qui concerne CARLIER Henri Emile, décédé à Anvers le 1/9/1875
son acte de décès a été retranscrit dans les registres de Dunkerque en 1877 parce qu'il était natif de Dunkerque, mais rien ne dit dans cet acte que son corps a été ramené à Dunkerque. Il avait 75 ans en 1875 donc né en 1800 et non pas 1817 comme l'ancètre de Bonnie et il n'est pas marié avec Louise Renée PLANTE. C'est ce qui nous a fait dire que ce n'était pas celui qu' on cherche.

Louise Renée PLANTE serait morte en 1878 en Belgique et enterrée à Dunkerque aussi , mais les TD de Dunkerque n'ont aucun acte ou transcription d'acte pour PLANTE ou PLANTEZ entre 1873 et 1882.
Et puis il y a aussi les 2 enfants de ce couple aussi enterrés à Dunkerque: Georges Emile, 13 ans, en 1852 et Emily Louise, 31 ans, en 1874 d'aprés le rapport de l' oncle. Je ne les ai pas trouvés dans les TD de Dunkerque. Pourquoi tous enterrés à Dunkerque???????

PLANTE ou PLANTÉ, on ne saura jamais. D'aprés Bonnie, l'oncle a dactylographié de multiples copies qu'il a faites pour ses frères et soeurs. Les claviers américains n'ayant pas de lettres accentuées, il n'avait pas le choix. Même chose avec les claviers d'ordinateurs. Je suis obligée de rédiger mes messages dans Word où je peux faire des accents pour ensuite les copier/coller sur le forum.

Bonnie ne possède que ce "rapport généalogique" que son oncle avait fait sur toute la famille jusqu'au descendants encore vivants, avec comme sources le journal de Arthur et un livre écrit par la mère de cet oncle. Il a complété ce rapport avec les données recues directement des descendants ( moins de 100ans). Etant donné l' époque du journal de Arthur, antérieur à 1880, il était surement manuscrit. Donc l' oncle a du déchiffrer l' écriture, et qui sait? des erreurs possibles en interprétant les noms? C'est pourquoi j'avais demandé à Bonnie si ce journal était écrit en francais ou en anglais. Tout tourne autour de ce fameux journal, la source primaire de l' information, et que Bonnie essaie d' obtenir d'une nièce qu'elle ne connait que de nom....

Annie-Françoise,
Ce que Bonnie a trouvé sur internet est un index alphabétique contenant:
MESLET, (Vve) née PLANTÉ Louise ( sa retranscription avait les noms inversés)
En faisant aujourd'hui une recherche MESLET, j'ai trouvé cette page. Il s'agit d'un index d'immigration 1840-1885 de la police d' Anvers qui contient les noms des étrangers résidant dans leur ville
Dossier 38373, Page159 Microfilm # 2234256
( voir image)
http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php...i&img=30606
Le nom est dans la colonne de droite avec le numéro de dossier, numéro de page en bas au crayon. Il n'y a rien en haut de page, c'est pourquoi je n'ai posté qu'une partie de la page,
Il est à noter qu'il n'y a aucune date pour chaque individu dans la liste, et MESLET ce n'est pas CARLIER.
Peut être sera t'il possible de trouver ce dossier quelque part pour vérifier le contenu

C'est tout pour le moment,
Bon week-end à tous
Christiane

[cfacon]

Bonjour à tous,

Vous trouverez ci-après une autre présentation de l'ascendance de Bonnie. Il n'y a rien de nouveau, tout est contenu dans la discussion. Tous les événements aux USA ont été vérifiés à partir des données accessibles sur le site FamilySearch (etat-civil, recensement, ..) et ont été indiqués par Christiane. Les difficultés commencent avec la génération 4 et 5 pour la famille CARLIER. Bonnie dispose d'un rapport de son oncle (CARLIER Charles Wilbur) et le détail est rappelé dans le message # 89 de Christiane.
Peut-être que cette présentation nous permettra d'apporter une aide complémentaire.
Il semble intéressant de se procurer le journal d'Arthur CARLIER. La recherche de l'acte de mariage Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida Mae CLOSE semble difficile sans date ni lieu. Le décès d'Arthur CARLIER peut amener des informations, il est situé en 1880 et Arthur a été inhumé à Toledo.
Bonnie devrait vérifier cet arbre pour indiquer éventuellement les erreurs.

TRANSLATION
You will find hereafter another way to display Bonnie's ancestry. Nothing new, all details are in the discussion. All events occurred in US have been checked with data available on FamilySearch website (birth, marriage and death records, census, ...) and provided by Christiane. Difficulties start with generations 4 and 5 regarding CARLIER family. Bonnie has a kind of report written by one of her uncle (CARLIER Charles Wilbur) and all details are available in Christiane's # 89 message.
May be this other way to display ancestry will allow you to bring an additional help.
It seems interesting to find the journal as prepared by Arthur CARLIER. Searching marriage record Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida Mae CLOSE seens difficult since date and place are not available. Arthur death record may contain useful information, Arthur deceased in 1880 and has been buried in Toledo.
Please Bonnie have a look to the following tree to check if there are errors.

Generation 1

1 CARLIER Bonnie

Generation 2

2 CARLIER George Emile °1905 (US) + 1978 (US)
3

Generation 3

4 CARLIER George Emile ° 06 October 1875 Erie, Pennsylvania; X 02 May 1900 Montgomery, Ohio; + 04 July 1941 Dayton, Ohio

Children:
- 1 CARLIER Newel ° 16 March 1901 Dayton, Ohio +;
- 2 CARLIER Gladys ° abt 1903, Ohio
- 4 CARLIER Ida Mae ° 11 June 1906 Mad River; Montgomery, Ohio; + 04 November 1906 Mad River, Montgomery, Ohio;
- 5 CARLIER Ruth Meril ° 21 November 1907 Mad River; Montgomery, Ohio; + 19 January 1988 Fresno, California;
- 6 CARLIER Verona ° 08 June 1910;
- 7 CARLIER Charles Wilbur ° 1911; + 1985; (the Uncle through the discussion)
- 8 CARLIER Albert Laverne ° 1915;

5 SPINK Annie (or Anna) E. ° 18 October 1881 Elyra, Illinois; X 02 May 1900 Montgomery, Ohio;

Generation 4

8 CARLIER Arthur Emile ° 1841 (Belgium); X 1873 abt, ???; + 1880; buried 1880, Toledo, Ohio;

Children:
- 1 CARLIER stillborn ° 1874 (US); + 1874 (US);
- 3 CARLIER Maude Louise ° 20 February 1877; + 25 april 1924 Lima, Allen County, Ohio;

9 CLOSE Ida (Idalia) Mae ° 1848-1851; X 22 February 1866 Cuyahoga County, Ohio; XX 1873 abt, ???; + 1882;

10 SPINK William X 01 June 1882 Lorain County, Ohio
11 PARSH Elisabeth X 01 June 1882 Lorain County, Ohio

Generation 5

16 CARLIER Henri Emile ° 1817 (Belgium); X 1838 (Belgium), + 1875 (Belgium)

Children:
- 1 CARLIER George Emile ° 1839 (Belgium); + 1852 (Belgium)
- 3 CARLIER Emily Louise ° 1843 (Belgium); + 1874 (Belgium)

17 PLANTE Louise Renée ° 1821 (Belgium); + 1875 (Belgium)

18 CLOSE Newel J.°1821; X 27 December 1839 Lorain County, Ohio

Children:
- 1 Mary L ° 1840 abt Sullivan, Ashland County, Ohio; + 17 December 1921 Washington, District of Columbia;
- 2 Jane ° 1845 abt
- 3 Theresa A.° 20 February 1847, Ohio; +;
- 5 Rosa ° 1855 abt
- 6 Alice M. ° 1867 abt, Ohio

19 MEAD Sarah Jane °1825; X 27 December 1839 Lorain County, Ohio

Bonne journée, Have a nice day
Christian

Ce message a été modifié par cfacon - 09/06/2012 à 14:46.

[ocoulon]

salut christian

au moins maintenant c'est du clair !

merci de ta compréhension (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


laurent
as tu regardé sur la belgique avec un K pour carlier ?
pour les tables de + pas trouvé sur dk (protestant ????)

heureux veinard , bientot les vacances (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ce message a été modifié par ocoulon - 09/06/2012 à 16:29.

[cdubrulle]

TRANSLATION[/b]
You will find hereafter another way to display Bonnie's ancestry. Nothing new, all details are in the discussion.
May be this other way to display ancestry will allow you to bring an additional help.
Searching marriage record Arthur Emile CARLIER x Ida Mae CLOSE seems difficult since date and place are not available. Arthur death record may contain useful information, Arthur deceased in 1880 and has been buried in Toledo.
Please Bonnie have a look to the following tree to check if there are errors.
Generation 4
8 CARLIER Arthur Emile ° 1841 (Belgium); X 1873 abt, ???; + 1880; buried 1880, Toledo, Ohio;
Children:
- 1 CARLIER stillborn ° 1874 (US); + 1874 (US);
- 3 CARLIER Maude Louise ° 20 February 1877; + 25 april 1924 Lima, Allen County, Ohio;
9 CLOSE Ida (Idalia) Mae ° 1848-1851; X 22 February 1866 Cuyahoga County, Ohio; XX 1873 abt, ???; + 1882;
'
Generation 5
16 CARLIER Henri Emile ° 1817 (Belgium); X 1838 (Belgium), + 1875 (Belgium)
Children:
- 1 CARLIER George Emile ° 1839 (Belgium); + 1852 (Belgium)
- 3 CARLIER Emily Louise ° 1843 (Belgium); + 1874 (Belgium)
17 PLANTE Louise Renée ° 1821 (Belgium); + 1875 (Belgium)
Christian

Bonjour à tous/toutes,

Good Job Christian !
Je ne peux pas faire ce style de tableau avec mon logiciel.
Je ne vois pas d'erreur, mais Bonnie devrait vérifier elle-même bien sur.

Un seul detail dans ce tableau:
Je vois que le sosa Carlier d'une génération ne figure pas parmi les enfants de la génération au-dessus:
Georges Emile de génération 3 n'est pas parmi les enfants de généraiton 4
Arthur de génération 4 n'est pas parmi les enfants de génération 5
Ce n'est pas un problème pour moi, mais je me demandais si ce sera clair pour d'autres.
Bon week-end

[cverhaeghe]

Bonsoir Olivier, bonsoir Christiane, bonsoir Christian ( es-tu un ex de Normed ??)
Bonsoir à toutes et tous

au moins maintenant c'est du clair !
Si tu avais bien suivi dés le début cela aurait été tout de suite clair (Lol.....)


pour les tables de + pas trouvé sur dk (protestant ????)
Excellente remarque, c'est celle que l'on m'a faite au service administratif du cimetière de Dunkerque lors de ma visite.
Question : ou peut-on trouver des infos sur les protestants de Dunkerque (décès, inumations ....) pour cette époque ??

Cordialement,

[cdubrulle]

Si tu avais bien suivi dés le début cela aurait été tout de suite clair (Lol.....)

pour les tables de + pas trouvé sur dk (protestant ????)
Excellente remarque, c'est celle que l'on m'a faite au service administratif du cimetière de Dunkerque lors de ma visite.
Question : ou peut-on trouver des infos sur les protestants de Dunkerque (décès, inumations ....) pour cette époque ??

Bonjour à tous,
TRANSLATION of the message from Claude,

In 10 yr indexes for Dunkerque, we do not find anything ( protestant????)
Excellent question, this is was I was asked at the cemetery of Dunkerque when I visited
Question: where can we find information about protestants in Dunkerque ( death and burials) for that period??.

Hi Bonnie,
Do you know if Arthur and his parents were catholic or protestant?
Christiane

[bhowell]

Hi everyone!

My uncle states that our early ancestors were Catholic, but Dr Arthur CARLIER left the Catholic faith when he married. All the family since 1900 that I know of, have been Protestants. I don't know of any Catholics in our family.

I want to say again, thank you all for your outstanding work and the time you've spent researching.

Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

My uncle states that our early ancestors were Catholic, but Dr Arthur CARLIER left the Catholic faith when he married. All the family since 1900 that I know of, have been Protestants. I don't know of any Catholics in our family.

I want to say again, thank you all for your outstanding work and the time you've spent researching.

Bonnie

TRADUCTION du message de Bonnie:

Mon oncle écrit que tous nos ancètres étaient catholique, mais DR. Arthur CARLIER abandonna la foi catholique lorsqu'il s'est marié.
Depuis 1900, toute la famille que je connais ont été protestants. Je ne connais pas de catholiques dans notre famillle
Je veux dire à nouveau merci pour le travail fantastique et le temps passé à faire cette recherche
Bonnie

Je rappelle que Arthur CARLIER s'est marié en 1873 en OHIO avec Ida CLOSE .
Je pense que Ida était sans doute protestante, son père était pasteur d'une église méthodiste.
Christiane

[† lcaestecker]

Salut à toutes et tous

C'est vrai olivier, je n'ai pas pensé à regarder les CARLIER commençant par un K !
J'y suis encore aller ce matin pour chercher éventuellement le couple MESLET - PLANTE
KARLIER voir aussi CARRELIER.
Que dis l'acte de décés de Arthur émile en 1880 ??
Peut être une info, un lieu, un témoin !!!

Laurent

[cdubrulle]

C'est vrai olivier, je n'ai pas pensé à regarder les CARLIER commençant par un K !
J'y suis encore aller ce matin pour chercher éventuellement le couple MESLET - PLANTE
KARLIER voir aussi CARRELIER.
Que dis l'acte de décés de Arthur émile en 1880 ??
Peut être une info, un lieu, un témoin !!!
Laurent

Re-bonjour,
L'acte de décés de Arthur Emile CARLIER en 1880 à Toledo OHIO , nous ne l'avons pas encore trouvé.
Sans doute pas encore indexé ou plutot pas encore posté sur internet dans le Comté où il est mort. Si on le trouve, il est vraisemblable qu'il ne citera pas la ville de naissance de Arthur, seulement le pays, mais ce serait déjà bien.

D'aprés ce que nous a cité Bonnie venant du rapport de son oncle, le nom CARLIER ne semble pas avoir eu de variantes en remontant jusqu'au père de Arthur. Je n'en ai pas trouvé en faisant mes nombreuses recherches, mais bien sur ce n'est pas à exclure. Part contre on trouve de nombreux CARLIER en Belgique, en France, et au Canada.

TRANSLATION for BONNIE
The question from Laurent is: Does the name CARLIER appear with different spellings like KARLIER or CARRELIER
What does the death record of Arthur in 1880 say? Place? witness?

My answer is that we have not found yet the death record of Arthur CARLIER in 1880 in Toledo, OHIO
Maybe it has not been indexed or rather posted yet on internet in that County. If we find it, it is likely that it will not indicate the town of birth, only the country, but it would be already a good thing.

According to what Bonnie cited from the report of her uncle, the name CARLIER does not seem to have different spellings going back to Arthurs' father. I did not find any while doing numerous searches, but of course, it should not be excluded. On the other hand, there are numerous CARLIER in Belgium, France, and Canada.

Christiane

[bhowell]

About the name CARLIER... I have found one record with the spelling Corlier that was really Carlier. Also I've seen some Carlior, and Charlier.

What I know about Arthur Emile CARLIER's death is that he was called to Toledo for a medical consult (he was a doctor) and while there, had a massive stroke and died. I believe his family lived in Mansfield, Ohio at the time.
Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

About the name CARLIER... I have found one record with the spelling Corlier that was really Carlier. Also I've seen some Carlior, and Charlier.

What I know about Arthur Emile CARLIER's death is that he was called to Toledo for a medical consult (he was a doctor) and while there, had a massive stroke and died. I believe his family lived in Mansfield, Ohio at the time.
Bonnie

Bonjour à tous et toutes,
TRADUCTION du message de Bonnie
"Au sujet du nom CARLIER, j'ai trouvé un seul acte CORLIER qui était en fait CARLIER. J'ai vu des CARLIOR et CHARLIER en faisant des recherches.
Ce que je sais au sujet du décès de Arthur Emile CARLIER est qu' il a été appellé pour une consultation à Toledo ( il était docteur) et là, il a eu une massive congestion cérébrale et il est mort. Je crois que sa famille habitait alors Mansfield, Ohio, à ce moment là."


Mon opinion est que CORLIER et CARLIOR sont simplement des erreurs de déchiffrage du nom CARLIER par les bénévoles qui font les indexes pour les mettre sur internet. J'ai vu ce genre de difficulté au sujet de l' indexing des recensements fédéraux. Par contre CHARLIER est sans doute à retenir.

Le décès de Arthur à Toledo est cité dans message #1 de Bonnie
Mansfield est dans le Comté de Richland à 150 kms de Toledo.
Dans mon message #60 voir:

Recensement fédéral 1880 en Ohio
La famille CARLIER habite Sullivan, Comté de Ashland, Ohio
Newel CLOSE , chef de famille
Sarah CLOSE, sa femme
Ida C. CARLIER, 29 ans, leur fille, née 1851 en Ohio, (pas de mention qu'elle est épouse ou veuve de Arthur CARLIER)
Georges N.E. CARLIER 4 ans, né en Pennsylvania
Maud CARLIER, 3 ans, née en Pennsylvania
Pas de Arthur CARLIER, le mari de Ida et père des enfants.
D’aprés Bonnie, il serait mort en 1880, donc sans doute mort avant le recensement qui a eu lieu en juin.

Les comtés de Richland et Ashland se touchent..
Par contre Toledo est au bord du Lac Erie dans le Comté de Lucas.

Bon dimanche à tous,
Christiane