CARLIER X PLANTE (ou THOMSON), Dunkerque Options

[† lcaestecker]

Bonjour Christiane et Bonnie

On attend des indices pour vous aider !

Laurent

Ce message a été modifié par lcaestecker - 02/06/2012 à 10:36.

[bhowell]

Hi Bonnie
The story of Maude is very telling.
Do you have the dates of the two directory listings you found? As you say, it might not be your Arthur. There were many Carlier in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and all the border States.

The directory listing for Erie, PA is 1875.

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour Christiane et Bonnie
On attend des indices pour vous aider !
Laurent

Bonjour Laurent,
Moi aussi j'attend des indices...

I've wondered if there could be any records from the University of Paris from the 1850's that might show Arthur's parents. He studied there and after getting his doctorate degree, he went back and became a surgeon. I haven't had any luck but it could be that one of you may know something about those records.

According to a daily journal Arthur kept, he came to USA in late 1860s and practiced medicine from Harrisburg, PA to Erie, PA and across northern Ohio in the late 1860s and 1870s. Also, he made several trips back to Belgium and one was to attend his mother's funeral, Louise Renee (PLANTE') CARLIER who died in 1878.

Two years later 1880, while on a consult in Toledo, he had a massive stroke and died. He was 39 years old.

Hi bonnie,
I noticed I had not answered your question. When it comes to researching the archives of the School of Medecine in Paris, we can't do it.
Since it is in Paris, this is not the subject of this forum which deals only with research in the Nord and Pas-de-Calais departments.

This morning I went to the meeting of the genealogy association of my area and the lecture was about comparing the genealogist's work to detective work which is quite true. This made me think about your problem and after re-reading your messages the following questions came to me:

- How long ago did your uncle made his research and write his notes?
- Do you have his original notes? or do you have only some information extracted from his notes?
- Does everything in your uncle's notes come from Arthur's journal, or did your uncle do some research himself?
- Did your uncle document the sources of his notes, such as "I found this and that in document so and so", or in a microfilm? or in such archive?
- Where did he find that Arthur studied medecine in Paris?
- What made him say that Arthur immigrated in the late 60s. Do you have any immigration record? Do you know if he came after the end of the Civil War? He doesn't seem to be in the 1870 Federal Census
- Do you have the precise date and place of Arthur and Ida's marriage or a copy of the record?
- Is the date of their marriage in Arthur's journal?

I am concerned because nothing you gave us about Arthur and his parents seems to have precise dates, just years, and we are not finding anything to document it.
- Do you, or did your uncle get any birth, marriage, or death records or any other official documents about Arthur Emile CARLIER?
- Or are these years just estimates?

You told us about Arthur CARLIER that:
- his father Henri Emile CARLIER was born in 1817 in Belgium, and died in 1875,
- his mother Louise Renée PLANTE was born in 1821 in Belgium, and died in 1878 in Belgium
- they got married in 1838 in Belgium
Do you have the precise dates or are those estimated?

Sorry to make you work... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Have a good Sunday,
Christiane

[cdubrulle]

Bonjour à tous/toutes
Voici la TRADUCTION du message # 63

Je me suis apercue que je n’avais pas répondu à votre question. Au sujet de rechercher les archives de l’ Ecole de Médecine de Paris, nous ne pouvons pas le faire. Comme c’est à Paris, ce n’est pas le propos de ce forum qui s’occupe seulement de faire de la recherche dans le Nord/Pas-de-Calais.

Ce matin je suis allée à la réunion de l’ Association Généalogique de ma région et il y avait une conference sur la similitude entre les methodes de travail du généalogiste et celui du detective, ce qui est vrai. Ceci m’a fait penser à votre problème et aux questions suivantes:

- Quand votre oncle a t’il fait ses recherches et écrit ses notes?
- Avez-vous ses notes écrites ou seulement de l’ information extraite de ses notes?
- Est-ce que toutes les notes de votre oncle viennent du journal de Arthur ou est-ce que votre oncle a fait des recherches lui-même?
- Est-ce que votre oncle a documenté les sources de ses notes, tel que “J’ai trouvé ceci et cela dans tel document, microfilm, ou telle archive?
- Où a t’il trouvé que Arthur a fait ses études de médecine à Paris?
- Qu’est-ce qui lui fait dire que Arthur a immigré dans les années 1865-70? Avez-vous un document d’ immigration? Savez-vous si il est arrivé après la fin de la Guerre Civile (1861-1865 pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas) Il ne semble pas être dans le Recensement fédéral de 1870.
- Avez-vous date précise et lieu du marriage de Arthur et Ida ou une copie de l’acte?
- Est-ce que la date de leur marriage se trouve dans le journal de Arthur?

Je suis ennuyée parce que rien de ce que vous nous avez fourni semble avoir une date précise, seulement une année et nous ne trouvons rien pour les documenter.
- Avez-vous, ou votre oncle, des actes de naissance, marriage, déces ou autre document official concernant Arthur Emile CARLIER?
- Ou est-ce que ce sont des dates estimées?
Vous nous avez dit au sujet de Arthur CARLIER que:
-Son père, Henri Emile Carlier, est né en 1817 en Belgique, mort en 1875
-Sa mere, Louise Renée PLANTE, est née en 1821 en Belgique, morte en 1878 en Belgique
-Ils se sont mariés en 1838 en Belgique.
Avez-vous les dates précises ou est-ce que ce sont des dates estimées?

Désolée de vous faire travailler.
Bon dimanche. Christiane

[bhowell]

Ha Christine... not work! It really is like detective work and I think that’s why I like doing it so much… and of course because I want to know. My aunt’s 102nd birthday is Friday and I was hoping to share some good news with her by then… but some day…

My Uncle's report (for lack of a better word) is 37 pages long and was written in July 1981. Part of it is my grandmother's side that he researched. My uncle died in 1985. He made copies for all of his brothers and sisters and their families. He also stated that the sources were from Arthur's journal, his mother's book that she had written in 1946 (which covered many events in her life from 1880's to 1946) and also letters her grandfather had received from Hull England. In conclusion, he said "These things plus family conversations which revealed facts of the past. Individual family records since 1900 were obtained from the families concerned."

On page two he wrote "Perhaps our ancestry could have been traced a few centuries further back if we had made some acquaintances earlier in life with some of the Carliers who lived in Belgium or France. We will have to accept the present information of our ancestry and perhaps, some day, someone will be able to trace the Carlier ancestry back to 1500 or even further back."

What made him say that Arthur immigrated in the late 60s. Do you have any immigration record? Do you know if he came after the end of the Civil War? He doesn't seem to be in the 1870 Federal Census
I think most info about Arthur was taken from his journal... such as when he immigrated to the US. I haven't found any immigration record for Arthur. I've only found one trip made by an Arthur Carlier and that was in 1876. I found an immigration paper for Emile Carlier, Merchant, Dunkerque July 1851. Could be Henry or Arthur? And a marriage register for Henry Emile Carlier from Kensington dated for July, Aug and Sept 1839. No bride's name.

- Do you have the precise date and place of Arthur and Ida's marriage or a copy of the record?
I don’t have copy of record… just know from my uncle’s notes. He wrote: “Arthur married Ida Mae Close (Burdick) in 1873. Ida Mae was born in 1849 in the Wellington-Sullivan, Ohio area. Died in 1882. Buried in the ‘Close Cemetery’ near New London, OH. There are only a few records of her life available.“ He also states that her father Newel Close was a minister of the Methodist Church. She had a sister named Theresa who lived in Tiffin, OH. And Dr. Arthur E Carlier and his wife lived in Mansfield, OH. Children:
Lettie Mae Born 1870 Died 1896 Buried New London, OH
Infant son Born 1874 stillborn Buried New London, OH
George Emile Born 1875 Died 1941 Buried Dayton, OH
Maude Louise Born 1877 Died 1924 Buried Belle Centre, OH”
- Is the date of their marriage in Arthur's journal? Don't know which source had this info.

Bonnie

[cdubrulle]

Hi Bonnie,
Thank you for providing some answers to my questions and a few more details. Any detail can be important, in particular dates and places.
I gather from what you wrote that your father got a copy of your uncle's report, and that you have it.. Have you been able to trace who has Arthur's journal? It would be so important to be able to get a photocopy of it.

I found an immigration paper for Emile Carlier, Merchant, Dunkerque July 1851. Could be Henry or Arthur? And a marriage register for Henry Emile Carlier from Kensington dated for July, Aug and Sept 1839. No bride's name.

Are you talking about something you found on the internet?

You say your uncle wrote “Arthur married Ida Mae Close (Burdick) in 1873. Does he say where? It would be so important to know in order to obtain a copy of that marriage record.

Tomorrow, I am going to try to look for immigration records or passenger lists.
Have you found a Family History Center in your area to search for a probate of Arthur CARLIER?

I got one message on the forum of Hainaut. In order to help, the person asks where the couple CARLIER x PLANTE died and what makes me say that their marriage was in Hainaut. Of course, I don't have the answers since you don't know which towns. The CARLIER name is very common and there are numerous CARLIER all over Belgium so I think it will be difficult to find something without being able to narrow the search down to the town.
Cheers,
Christiane

[cfacon]

Bonjour à toutes et à tous

Voici la TRADUCTION du message #65

Ah Christiane…pas du travail. C’est véritablement comme un travail de détective et je pense que c’est pourquoi j’aime tant le faire… et naturellement parce que je souhaite savoir. Vendredi prochain c’est le 102ème anniversaire de ma tante et j’espérais pouvoir partager quelques bonnes nouvelles avec elle à cette occasion…. mais un jour….

Le rapport de mon Oncle (faute d’un meilleur mot) fait 37 pages et a été rédigé en juillet 1981. Une partie de celui-ci est relatif à la branche de ma grand-mère sur laquelle il a fait des recherches. Mon oncle est décédé en 1985. Il a fait des copies pour tous ses frères et sœurs et leurs familles. Il a également indiqué que ses sources provenaient du journal d’Arthur, du livre sur sa mère qu’il a écrit en 1946 (qui couvrait de nombreux événements entre les années 1880 et 1946) et aussi des lettres de sa grand-mère qu’elle avait reçues de Hull Angleterre. En conclusion, il disait : « Ces éléments ainsi que des conversations en famille ont révélé des faits du passé ». Des actes de membres de la famille ont été récupérés à partir de 1900 pour les familles en question.

A la page 2 il a écrit : « Peut-être que notre ascendance aurait pu être établie sur quelques siècles si nous avions fait la connaissance plus tôt dans notre existence avec quelques uns des CARLIERs qui vivaient en Belgique ou en France. Nous aurons à accepter les présentes informations de notre ascendance et peut-être, un jour, quelqu’un sera en mesure d’établir l’ascendance CARLIER jusqu’en 1500 et même plus loin ».

Qu’est-ce qui lui fait dire qu’Arthur a immigré dans les années 1865-70? Avez-vous un document d’immigration? Savez-vous s’il est arrivé après la fin de la Guerre Civile? Il ne semble pas être dans le Recensement fédéral de 1870.
Je pense que l’essentiel des informations a été prélevé dans son journal…notamment quand il a émigré vers les US. Je n’ai pas trouvé le certificat d’immigration d’Arthur. J’ai seulement trouvé une traversée faite par un Arthur CARLIER et c’était en 1876. J’ai trouvé un certificat d’immigration pour Emile CARLIER, Marchand, Dunkerque Juillet 1851. Se pourrait-il que ce soit Henry ou Arthur ? Et un enregistrement de mariage de Henry Emile CARLIER de Kensington sur la période Juillet, Août, Septembre 1839. Sans nom de l’épouse.

Avez-vous la date précise et le lieu du mariage d’Arthur et Ida ou une copie de l’acte?
Je ne possède pas la copie de l’acte….ce que je sais provient des notes de mon oncle. Il a écrit : « Arthur s’est marié avec Ida Mae CLOSE (BURDICK) en 1873. Ida est née en 1849 dans le secteur Wellington-Sullivan, Ohio. Décédée en 1882, inhumée dans le « CLOSE Cemetery » près de New London, Ohio. Il y a juste quelques éléments de sa vie disponibles ». Il a également noté que son père Newel CLOSE était un pasteur de l’Eglise Méthodiste. Elle avait une sœur prénommée Theresa qui habitait Tiffin, Ohio. Et Dr. Arthur E. CARLIER et son épouse vivait à Mansfield, Ohio. Enfants :
- Lettie Mae née en 1870, décédée en 1896, enterrée à New London, Ohio
- Fils né sans vie en 1874, enterré à New London, Ohio
- George Emile né en 1875, décédé en 1941, enterré à Dayton, Ohio
- Maude Louise née en 1877, décédée en 1924, enterrée à Belle Centre, Ohio

Est-ce que la date de leur mariage se trouve dans le journal d’Arthur?
Je ne connais pas l’origine de cette information.

Bonnie

Amicalement
Christian

Remarque: Lettie Mae CLOSE est indiquée comme fille d'Arthur Emile CARLIER, il s'agit en réalité d'un enfant issu du premier mariage de Ida Mae avec Samuel BURDICK. Cette fille a été élevée par Arthur Emile CARLIER après le décès dudit BURDICK. Lettie Mae a été mariée avec Frank T MONKS et comme expliqué dans le fil de la discussion, Lettie Mae est décédée très tôt et avait deux enfants. Ces enfants ont été élevés par Maude Louise, soeur utérine, après qu'elle se soit mariée avec le même Frank T MONKS.

[cfacon]

Hi Bonnie, bonjour Christiane, bonjour à tous,

-1- To avoid any misunderstanding with the "Uncle", please Bonnie give us the first name of the uncle together with first and last name of his wife since ancestry was studied on this side.
-2- Through the discussions it was mentioned several times by Bonnie that Arthur migrated to US, made several trips to Europe and came to Europe (Antwerp) to attend his mother funeral. We do have a possibility to trace these various trips and I agree with Christiane with the idea to study immigration lists ans passengers lists.

On ISTG website, I found the following:
6 Arthur Carlier 24 M Gent England New York 2nd Cabin
Columns represent: given name and surname, occupation, the country to which they severally belong, the country of which they intend to become inhabitants, and the part of the ship occupied during the voyage.
He was passenger on Atalanta vessel crossing from London, England and Le Havre, France to New York 25 March 1867
It might be the same Arthur as found by Bonnie but the trip was in 1867 instead of 1876. Possibly an error between the armchair and the computer.

On Ancestry.com website, I also found an Arthur CARLIER without details if we have not subscribed to the site. Anyway the place of arrival is given for Pennsylvania.

-3- Christiane gave us some informations collected from LDS Site, in particuler about various census.
In 1880, Ida Mae and children are based at Sullivan, Ashland County, OH, living with Ida parents. Marital status for Ida is "Married". In case Arthur died before census, marital status would be "Widowed".
Same year, Christiane found another census for Henrietta, Lorain, Ohio where we have an Arthur CARLIER living in a cheese factory. His marital status is also "married".
During the discussion, Bonnie explained that Arthur used to work, time to time, in a cheese factory to win money. In case we are able to find more details, I think we have to push forward our investigations. I tried to study the the family of the cheese factory COLE & Co for finding a possible link with CARLIER and/or CLOSE families. Without success at this time.

-4- I agree with Christiane with the idea to get the full copy of the journal written by Arthur. If I have well understood, this document has been given by Arthur to the family and today Debby CARLIER (FINK ?), daughter of Ruth Meril CARLIER, has this journal. For sure copy of this document is to be kept by Bonnie.

-5- Regarding the marriage register for Henry Emile Carlier from Kensington dated for July, Aug and Sept 1839. I bet it is the marriage Henri Emile CARLIER x Louise Catherine THOMPSON August 2nd 1839 Upper Chelsea. We have already discussed about this event.

Good investigations
Christian

[bhowell]

I called the local Family History Center and it is in a church that is reorganizing. The lady told me someone would get back to me this week. So, I'm hoping that will be very soon.

My uncle said Arthur's family (survivors) lived in Mansfield, OH when he died. And then on to say he was buried in Toledo, OH.

Is there a way for me to send you some of the pages of my uncle's report? I did have a hard copy of it years ago, but can't find mine. My niece has a copy that was my sister's when she died. So she scanned it and sent it to me in a PDF file. I can't copy and paste from that file. So it would be all (37 pages) or tid bits like I've been giving you. I don't want to overload you or the message board though.

Thank you Christiane!
Bonnie

[bhowell]

Christian,
Thank you for putting information from these searches together. It gets a little hectic sometimes. I have a family tree program that I use at home. Also have one on ancestry.com. I am not a member but made it while I had the two weeks free with them. I've also created spreadsheets and making a notebook with documents I've downloaded.

I think Arthur CARLIER traveled and lived with other families at times. That would explain the census with him at the COLE household and Ida and children at her parents. One thing new was that you mentioned Cole and Co? I haven't seen that. So he lived in their household and worked at their factory? Is that what you are saying? That would definitely make the connection with the cheese factory.

My uncle's name is Charles Wilbur CARLIER (1911-1985). (We called him Uncle Bill). He was married two times. First wife was Ellen Dora IOBST in 1934 and second wife was Myrtle PUPHREY in 1949. In 1981 they resided in North Fort Myers, FL.

Regarding the trips Arthur made back and forth... I only know of the one you mentioned 1867 (could be his first trip to US) and the one in 1878 when he went to his mother's funeral. My uncle stated that he made several trips back to Belgium.. that information must have come from Arthur's journal.

I am trying to locate the journal... I would LOVE to see it. Apparently Debbie has been distant from the family for quite a while. I personally have never met her. I just sent a letter to my aunt yesterday asking if she has found Debbie's address yet. I hope she has.

Again, thank you!
Bonnie

[cfacon]

Bonnie,

Don't be disturbed with COLE & Co, it's just a brand-new company I created this morning for the cheese factory. Just forget it.

Christian

[bhowell]

okay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cdubrulle]

Hi everyone, Hi Bonnie
Today I went back to the Family History Center where I can search different websites not available without a subscription, I am not searching only the LDS site, but also Ancestry.com, and their links to other websites that are not free to the public.

Immigration Index
I found Arthur CARLIER, 1867, Pennsylvania - No age. No place of origin - No mention that he is a doctor.
No way to know if it is the Arthur we are looking for, but it could be.
The source for this information is page 19 of the Erie Society for Genealogical Research, published in 1869,
The originial source for this entry is "Passenger and Immigration Lists Index 1500s-1900s " by William P. FILBY
I had consulted that book some years ago in a genealogical library for my own research, but unfortunately our FHC does not have the book.

ITSG ( Immigrant Ships Transcriber Guild)
I have seen the arrival of Arthur CARLIER on March 25, 1867 in New York on the SS Atalanta, traveling in a cabin, a sign that he was wealthy. Unfortunately, his occupation is not listed as "Doctor" but as "Gent" for gentleman, It it is consistant with the Immigration Index, but we still don’t know if it is the man we are looking for.

Census of 1860
I found Idelia ( Ida) CLOSE, 9 years old, with her parents M.I. CLOSE 39 years and Sarah CLOSE 35 years as well as the other children Jane 15, Theresa 13, and Rosa 5.
We know that the father's name is Newell CLOSE ( donc pas M.) but I have seen some original photos of the census pages and they are so badly written sometimes, that the persons who are indexing them have a hard time to figure out the names or initials. The age of the parents in this 1860 census correspond to their ages (59 and 55) when I found them in the 1880 census.

Marriage BURDICK x CLOSE
22 February 1866 marriage of Samuel C. BURDICK and Idelia CLOSE
in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. The father is N. J CLOSE and performs the marriage as a "Minister of the Gospel".
I think that Bonnie mentionned he was a Methodist Minister

I did not find any marriage CARLIER x CLOSE or CARLIER x BURDICK ( in case Ida was under her married name from her first marriage) either in Ohio or Pennsylvania, between 1865 and 1875. I chose that large margin of dates to be sure not to miss it. I am frustrated about not finding their marriage, because it can be the lead to his parents and their origin, but the index of a particular County might not be available on the net.

Erie, Pennsylvania, 1875 City Directory
I saw in the listing: Arthur CARLIER Dr. Physician and Surgeon office, with an address
This is what Bonnie was citing in a message, but we don't know if it is the right Arthur CARLIER?

I have a question for Bonnie: Since Arthur came from France or Belgium, was his journal written in English or in French?
That’s it for today
Christiane
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TRADUCTION
Bonjour à tous/toutes,
Je suis retournée au Centre Mormon où je peux faire de la rechercher sur diff'erents sites interent non accessible sans abonnement payant. Je ne cherche pas seulement sur le site LDS, mais aussi Ancestry.com et j’explore leurs liens à d'autres sites qui ne sont pas gratuits au public

Index d' immigration
J'ai trouvé Arthur CARLIER, 1867, Pennsylvania. Pas d’âge. Pas de lieu d'origine. Pas de mention qu'il est docteur
Donc pas certain que ce soit celui qu'on cherche, mais c'est possible
La source pour cette information est p. 19 d'une publication de 1869 par la Societé de Recherche Généalogique de Erie, Pennsylvannia. La source de cette publication est un livre de W. FILBY "Index des listes de Passagers et Immigration 1500-1900. J'avais consulté ce livre il y a plusieurs années dans une bibliothèque généalogique pour ma propre recherche , mais mon centre n'a pas ce livre.

ITSG ( Guilde de transcriptions des vaisseaux d'immigrants)
C'est un site qui transcrit pour chaque vaisseau, la liste des passagers arrivant aux US
Comme Christian, j'ai vu l'arrivée de Arthur CARLIER à New York le 25 mars 1867 sur le vaisseau SS Atalanta
Arthur CARLIER, 24 ans, venant d'Angleterre avec l'intention d'habiter New York - Voyage en cabine, un signe qu'il avait des moyens- la plupart des passagers voyageant dans des conditions très inférieures et sans comfort.
Son occupation ou métier n’est pas listée comme docteur, mais seulement “gent” qui voudrait dire “Gentleman” La date d’arrivée est consistante avec l’ Index d’immigration de Pennsylvania, mais nous ne savons toujours pas si c’est celui qu’on cherche.

Recensement de 1860
On y trouve Idelia (Ida) CLOSE, 9 ans, avec ses parents M.I CLOSE 39 ans et Sarah CLOSE 35 ans, et aussi leurs autres enfants Jane 15 ans, Theresa 13 ans, and Rosa 5ans.
Nous savons que le père de Ida est Newell CLOSE,( donc pas M.) mais j’ai vu des photos des pages de recensement et elles sont parfois si mal écrites, que la personne faisant l’index a du mal d’interpreter les noms ou les initiales. L’âge des parents dans ce recensement de 1860 correspond avec l’age qu’ils ont ( 59 et 55) dans le recensement de 1880 (que je cite dans message #60)

Mariage BURDICK x CLOSE
22 Février 1866 mariage de Samuel C. BURDICK x Idelia CLOSE
dans le Comté de Cuyahoga en Ohio. Le père est N. J CLOSE et c’est lui qui les marie, étant “Pasteur de l’Evangile”. Bonnie a mentionné ( message # 65) qu’il ‘était pasteur Méthodiste

Je n’ai pas trouvé de mariage CARLIER x CLOSE or CARLIER x BURDICK ( au cas ou elle se serait remariée sous son nom de premier mariage) , que ce soit en Ohio, ou en Pennsylvania entre 1865 et 1875, J’ai choisi un large fourchette de date pour ne rien manquer. C’est frustrant parce que leur mariage pourrait nous livrer les parents et leur origine. Mais il y a des Comtés qui n’ont sans doute pas encore été indexés ou postés sur le net

Erie, Pennsylvania, Annuaire de 1875
Comme le citait Bonnie, dans la liste alphabétique de cet annuaire on y trouve en effet : Arthur CARLIER Dr., docteur et chirurgien, et l’adresse à Erie. c'est ce que citait Bonnie, mais nous ne savons pas si c’est le bon Arthur.

J’ai une question pour Bonnie. Puisque Arthur était venu de France ou de Belgique, est-ce que son journal était écrit en anglais ou en français?
Voila pour aujourd’ hui. La recherche continue....
Christiane

[bhowell]

Wow Christiane, you've been busy... I don't know if the journal was in French or English. My guess is English because I don't know if my uncle knew French and I think he would have mentioned somewhere if he had to translate it. I know... I'm no help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The thoughts that keep running through my head are 1) I think Henry and Louise must have had some money to be able to send Arthur to school at the University of Paris. 2) I think Arthur was well off until he got to America. I don't know the trend back then, but a doctor traveling around several states practicing medicine yet needing to work in a cheese factory to help with medical supplies seems odd to me. 3) And why would he leave his family to travel around so much? Lots of questions... And "Who Do You Think You Are" on TV makes it all look so easy! Ha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I have Googled all kinds of thoughts just to see if I could run across something, lots of interesting things, but none that could help ...

Thank you Christiane! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cdubrulle]

Wow Christiane, you've been busy... I don't know if the journal was in French or English. My guess is English because I don't know if my uncle knew French and I think he would have mentioned somewhere if he had to translate it. I know... I'm no help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The thoughts that keep running through my head are 1) I think Henry and Louise must have had some money to be able to send Arthur to school at the University of Paris. 2) I think Arthur was well off until he got to America. I don't know the trend back then, but a doctor traveling around several states practicing medicine yet needing to work in a cheese factory to help with medical supplies seems odd to me. 3) And why would he leave his family to travel around so much? Lots of questions... And "Who Do You Think You Are" on TV makes it all look so easy! Ha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Hi Bonnie,
OK, so Arthur journal’s was probably in English. Besides getting some answers, it would be interesting to see how good is english was.
You are right! A doctor needing to work as a servant in a farmer’s household and as a servant in a cheese factory ( according to the 1880 census he was doing both) does not sound right, and why would he live in another household?
The family lived in Ohio you said, but the doctor in the city directory is in Erie, Pennsylvania. There might be 2 Arthur CARLIER one in OH and one in PA.
A lot of questions... That’s why Arthur’s journal is so important. It would bring lots of answers.

At least the 1860 census and the marriage BURDICK x CLOSE in 1866 that I found, confirm what you knew. The immigration in 1867 could be Arthur but we have no proof so far.

I answered the Belgium forum saying I was trying to help you in checking what you have because you don’t speak French.
Christiane

[cdubrulle]

You asked a question about Dunkirk cemetery. As far as I know there was only one cemetery at that time for Dunkirk.
By experience I know that cemeteries have their own registers to keep track of people buried there : who, when, where in the cemetery.

Regarding the other question related to people died in a place and buried in another place. It is not really frequent, except if you died where you were not living (for instance accident). It can be also the case when transfered to another place to be buried with your ancestors our family if space is available in the burial vault.
Christian

Bonjour à tous et toutes,
En relisant les messages de cette file, l’information fournie par Bonnie et l’information que nous avons trouvée ou pas trouvée, il semble difficile pour le moment de vérifier la naissance de Arthur CARLIER en Belgique et son mariage aux US

D’aprés le journal de Arthur, ses parents sont:
Henri Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) né et décédé en Belgique, enterré à Dunkerque
x 1738 Belgique
avec Louise Renée PLANTE (1821-1878) née et décédée en Belgique, enterré à Dunkerque

Il me semble que la principale énigme, et la chose qui pourrait être vérifiée sur ce forum est la suivante: Sont-ils enterrés à Dunkerque ainsi que 2 de leurs enfants, comme l’écrit leur fils Arthur dans son journal? Si oui, est-ce que le cimetière de Dunkerque a encore de l’information sur ce couple dans leurs dossiers? noms, prénoms, dates, etc..
Si quelqu’un sur le forum habite Dunkerque, serait-il possible de faire cette recherche? Ce serait une aide fantastique pour confirmer ou au contraire nous remettre sur une autre piste.
Merci d’avance pour Bonnie
Christiane

TRANSLATION for BONNIE
After re-reading the messages on this subject, the information from Bonnie and the information we found or did not find, it seems difficult for the moment to verify the birth of Arthur CARLIER in Belgium and his marriage in the US

According to Arthur’s journal, his parents are:
Henri Emile CARLIER (1817-1875) born and deceased in Belgium, buried in Dunkirk
x 1738 Belgium
with Louise Renée PLANTE (1821-1878) born and deceased in Belgium, buried in Dunkirk

It seems that the main enigma, and the thing that could be verified on this forum is the following: Were they buried in Dunkirk’ cemetery with 2 of their children, as their son Arthur wrote in his journal? If so, does the Dunkirk’s cemetery has information on this couple still in their file? Names, first names, dates, etc...
If a member of the forum lives in Dunkirk, would it be possible to do that research? It would be a fantastic help, either to confirm or to lead us on another track
Thank you in advance for Bonnie,
Christiane

[cverhaeghe]

Bonjour Christiane, bonjour Bonnie, bonjour à toutes et tous,

Je me suis rendu cet après-midi au cimetière principale de Dunkerque afin d'essayer de vous aider (je réside à 1500 m de celui-ci).
Le service administratif du cimetière détient des registres depuis 1835 (avec forcément des lacunes et des oublis ....).
Nous n'avons pas trouvé trace de l'inhumation éventuelle du couple CARLIER-PLANTE, après avoir parcouru les registres de 1875 à 1880.

Cependant :
1) Il faut savoir que les sépultures ne sont connues que par les noms de leurs propriétaires.
2) Que tous les rapatriements de corps pour inhumation, ne sont pas forcément enregistrés à cette époque m'a-t-on dit !!
3) Il faudrait consulter les autres registres après 1880, au cas ou les corps auraient été rapatriés après cette année.
4) Il y a d'autres cimetières sur le dunkerquois, comme ceux de Malo-les-bains, Rosendael ou encore Petite-Synthe ....

Il faudrait continuer les (nos) recherches en Belgique pour trouver les lieux exacts de naissance et de décès de ce couple.

Cordialement,

Ce message a été modifié par cverhaeghe - 07/06/2012 à 15:15.

[cfacon]

Bonjour Christiane, Hi Bonnie, bonjour à tous,

Message # 77 TRANSLATION

This afternoon I went to the Dunkirk main cemetery with the purpose to try and help you (I am living abt 1 mile away)
The Administrative Dept holds registers from 1835 (for sure with missing parts and omissions)
We have been through 1875 to 1880 years and unfortunately no mention of the burial either of Arthur CARTIER or Louise PLANTE.

However:
1) We have to know that burial place is known under the name of the owner,
2) I have been told that at the considered period, died people transfers for burial were not all registered,
3) It would be necessary to check registers after 1880 in case the transfers were made after this year,
4) There are other cemeteries nearby Dunkirk, such as Malo-les-Bains, Rosendael and even Petite-Synthe...

It would be good to continue your/our searches in Belgium to get more precise dates and places of birth and dead for this family.


Christian

[cfacon]

Bonnie

I tried to send to you a private message through this forum but it was rejected probably because you have not yet reach a certain amount of messages. Can you try on your side to give me a mail address.
To send a private message, click on my login name for instance on the left of one of my messages, then Envoyer un message / Send a message. Website Administrators don't enjoy to have mail address included in the discussion.

Christian

[cdubrulle]

Message # 77 TRANSLATION
This afternoon I went to the Dunkirk main cemetery with the purpose to try and help you (I am living abt 1 mile away)
The Administrative Dept holds registers from 1835 (for sure with missing parts and omissions)
We have been through 1875 to 1880 years and unfortunately no mention of the burial either of Arthur CARTIER or Louise PLANTE.

It would be good to continue your/our searches in Belgium to get more precise dates and places of birth and dead for this family.
Christian

Bonjour Claude, et bonjour à tous,
Merci d’avoir fait cette visite au cimetière. Dommage que vous n’avez rien trouvé.
Quand à faire de la recherche en Belgique, le problême est que Bonnie n’a aucune information sur la ville ou la région de naissances et décès du couple CARLIER x PLANTE. Elle n'a rien de plus que ce que je citais dans mon message #76.
J’ai mis un message pour elle sur AGHB, le forum du Hainaut Belge, mais jusqu’à present, on m’a seulement demandé de préciser....
Bonne soirée
Christiane

TRANLATION of above:
Thank you for having gone to the Dunkirk cemetery. To bad you did not find anything.
As to do some research in Belgium, the problem is that Bonnie has no information about the town or the region of birth and death of the couple CARLIER x PLANTE. Nothing more than what I cited in my message #76
I posted a message for her on AGHB, the Belgium Hainaut forum, but so far, I have had only one message requesting more precise information
Christiane

Bonjour Christian,
Thank you for the translation of Claude’s message
I write in english since you understand and I won’t have to translate for Bonnie.
Bonnie won’t be able to send you a Private Message either for the same reason that she has not reached the 50 messages on the forum.
If it is not too private and if this is OK with you, you can send me a PM. I will transfer it to Bonnie. It is not advisable to post an email address on the forum because it can be picked up by anybody to send her spam.
Have a good evening,
Christiane