MESSIAEN X DECLERCK, Région de Wormhout Options

[jspoel]

La salutation de l'Australie ensoleillée et demandant votre aide avec notre recherche de 7 enfants MESSIAEN comme suit.

Maurice Joseph Paul Messiaen MESSIAEN, né le 12 février 1893 dans Bavinchove [un enfant de Messiaen-Kerfyser] s'est marié avec Jeanne Anne Marie Declerck DECLERCK , née le 13 mars 1896 dans Wormhout [un enfant de Declerck-Rousseau]

Maurice et Jeanne apparemment avaient 7 enfants.
Un nous savons; indices sur un enfant xxx supprimé né il y a moins de 100ans voir : http://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/index.php?showtopic=71429

Nous voudrions apprendre :

Les noms, les dates et les lieux de naissance des 6 frères et soeurs de Raymonde Simonne (les autres enfants du mariage de Raymond Maurice et de Jeanne) et
La date et l'endroit de mariage de Raymond Maurice et de Jeanne

N'importe quelle assistance et ou conseil sera très appréciée.

avec les égards gentils

Johannes Petrus Spoel
Caves Beach
Australia

Ce message a été modifié par mderam - 15/09/2012 à 08:51.

Raison de l'édition : patronymes """ toujours """ en majuscules, dlarchet

[cfacon]

Hello Jean Pierre, bonojur à tous,

Herreafter some comments about messages #14 and #15

In her message, Myriam explains that Maurice was living at Wormhout by 1906. Indeed, the census performed during this year shows the following:
Wormhout Potters Straete
Lucien MESSIAEN, né(e) à Wormhout en 1867 - Situation : Chef - Profession : Journalier agricole - Employeur : Goetgheluck. - Nationalité : F.
Sylvie KERFYSER, né(e) à Arnèke en 1869 - Situation : Femme - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.
Maurice MESSIAEN, né(e) à Bavinchove en 1893 - Situation : Fils. - Nationalité : F.

For this family, Lucien MESSIAEN is in fact Jérémie Elie MESSIAEN. Lucien is just his nickname.

As far as Jeanne DECLERCK was born at Wormhout and was living there by 1906 for the same reason as above:
Wormhout Chemin Vert
Amand DECLERCK, né(e) à Oxelaëre en 1851 - Situation : Chef - Profession : Journalier agricole - Employeur : Denys. - Nationalité : F.
Julie ROUSSEAU, né(e) à Zermezeele en 1856 - Situation : Femme - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.
Gustave DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1881 - Situation : Fils - Profession : Tailleur de lin - Employeur : Paresys. - Nationalité : F.
Marguerite DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1887 - Situation : Fille - Profession : Journalier agricole - Employeur : Ammeux. - Nationalité : F.
Louise DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1891 - Situation : Fille - Profession : Journalier agricole - Employeur : Ammeux. - Nationalité : F.
Henri DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1894 - Situation : Fils - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.
Joseph DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1894 - Situation : Fils - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.
Jeanne DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1896 - Situation : Fille - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.
Marie DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1896 - Situation : Fille - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.
Julien DECLERCK, né(e) à Wormhout en 1899 - Situation : Fils - Profession : Sans profession. - Nationalité : F.

we may expect to have the marriage MESSIAEN x DECLERCK at Wormhout and same for births of children.
Another census was made during year 1911 unfortunately data are not available in line.

Using Geopatronyme website matched with MESSIAEN patronym was used by Myriam to show that you have a real chance to find your french connections in Nord department since most of the people born between 1916 and 1940 are located here and Wormhout is in 4th position. It is the only information we can have and nothing more in terms of details about births or marriages.

Myriam has tested another possibility available on "Archives départementales du Nord" website regarding army data.
All male children were called in front of an army medical board for recruiting. Checking was performed on the Class YEAR where YEAR = birth year + 20. During this check a registration number (matricule) is given to each one.
Later you have the possibility to follow the military career of one individual with sometimes interesting informations. Here again because of the 100 years rule, data for Classe 1913 are not available. Access will be possible next year.

I have well understood that two geneations are missing or not detailed enough between Brigitte and parents/grand parents.
You mention you have all certificates. Have you birth records for Maurice MESSIAN and DECLERCK Jeanne?
I have birth certificate for Maurice but without comment about marriage. Our expectation was to get the same certificate for Jeanne with possibly some comment about marriage (date and location).
Effective from August 17 1897, City House Officers had to update birth certificates with marriage date and location by a small comment in the margin. It has not been done for Maurice born at Bavinchove.
As already explained, having date and location of the marriage, Brigitte is entitled to ask for the marriage record (including filiation) for her grand parents.

Have a nice weekend
Christian

[jspoel]

Hi again Christian and all other participants in our Messiaen/Declerck research.

As indicated I obtained the birth certificate from Raymonde Simone Yvone Messiaen the daughter from Messiaen.Declerck from our genealogist in Saint Etiene. I also have the birtth and mariage certificates from Lucien Elie Messiaen * Sylvie Marie kerfyser and the birth certificate of Maurice on which a note is made that he was born one year before the marriage of his parents. I do not have in my possession the birthcertificate Of Jeanne Anne Marie Declerck.

It is good to note that Effective from August 17 1897, City House Officers had to update birth certificates with marriage date and location by a small comment in the margin. It has not been done for Maurice born at Bavinchove. Does that mean that notwithstanding a person may have moved to and married for example in Lyon that still Bavinchove has to be informed of the marriage in Lyon. What would be the reason that no update of the marriage of Maurice was made in Bavinchove???

I would further more assume that based on the date of birth of Maurice Messiaen and Jeane Declerck that their date of marriage would be 1916-1926 taken also into account they had 7 children and the year of birth of one of them in 1835 in Wormhout. Should Brigitte, who has in the meantime put in her request to the "marie de Wormhout also write to the "marie de Bavinchove and if so what is that email address Maurice and Jeanne have passed away in the meantime, Is there some where a note made of that too? and where are these records kept?? and can they be accessed digitally??

Ending does Nord Pas de Calais not have a centralized access digital record system where only a name has to entered and all the birth, marriage and death data appear on the screen. Where Messsiaen as the first person and Declerck as second person can be entered and the marriage place and date data inclusive parents from both appear?

Anyway, thanks again very much for all your input and explanations.

Greetings and wishing you have a nice weekend too.

Jean Pierre Spoel by now